The Pub Discussion Board

veon · 2016-07-01 10:55:00

love it... his work as a rinhorn seems intersting

(posted from Chapter 1: June)

Eric Storm · 2016-07-01 15:46:29

Glad everyone is enjoying the (Correct!) chapter this month.

Fenixreign: Your question will be answered in the next chapter.

SlaveMaster: You're gonna love book 8...

Eric Storm

Archangel1962 · 2016-07-01 16:39:58

As always another great chapter. I can see how things are starting to shape up, and look forward to it. I discovered a typo, " He stopped for just a moment, running hsi hands over her ass, but then he grabbed her hips and started to thrust. " Hsi should be his. Anyway keep up the good work. I look forward to next month.

(posted from Chapter 7: December)

veon · 2016-07-01 18:24:51

Hi Eric I have a question in the chapter one in the interviel David is asked how his abilities as master conjurer would help him as a rinhorn and david said it wouldn't but I start to think about the battle in the end of book 5 something if he can move things fast and with precision would be capable of lets say disarm a wizard of his wand or with his abilities of sense objects with his mind would he not be capable of finding hidden compartments or rooms I mean crimes are usualy hidden lets say a cadaver in the wall a false draw with incriminating documents you know and for axemple if he is following someone that is running would he not be theoretically capable of conjure something in the person way like chairs or tables to make a scape harder? thanks again for the chapter I love it. ps english is not my first language and I am still learning to forgive me for any errors

Fenixreign · 2016-07-01 20:09:42

Eric Storm wrote:
Glad everyone is enjoying the (Correct!) chapter this month.

Fenixreign: Your question will be answered in the next chapter.

Eric Storm

Thanks, Eric.

Eric Storm · 2016-07-01 21:23:33

veon:

First, just a correction, they are called "Rimohrs". I know, it's a completely made-up word, making it even harder to learn, but...

As to your question, I think you are confusing, to some extent, Conjuring and Divination.

Conjuring is not allowed during investigations. This is because the evidence quite literally disappears, and there's no way to guarantee that the evidence that reappears is the same evidence. The situations you're bringing up, such as stopping someone from escaping, aren't really part of an investigation, but more of an arrest attempt. David's response to the question posed by the interviewer assumes the "normal" job role of a Rimohr, which supposes he will not need to chase his suspect.

Divination is not allowed during investigation except under very specific circumstances prescribed by law. This is for a couple reasons: 1) No one knows what the diviner saw, except the diviner. It is essentially hearsay. 2) It's too easy to fool even an honest seer by using anti-divination magic. This makes divination unreliable. Some particular exceptions are made, such as The Trace, which can be put on a wizard to keep track of their location, or during times where someone's life may be in jeopardy and the divination is more about rescue than arrest.

I hope I've cleared this matter up for you. If not, please feel free to reword your question.

Regards,
Eric Storm

Eric Storm · 2016-07-01 21:24:35

Archangel1962: At that point in the story, you were noticing typos? Geez, I need to work on my sex scenes...

3dtongue

Eric Storm

veon · 2016-07-01 22:05:42

Hi Eric thanks for answering and sorry for the misspelling ... well as for confusing conjuration with divination lets say that when you described conjuring during the books you always say that David feel the objects theirs forms in his mind and I always understand this as meaning that to conjure you should have a kind of mind sense like a blind person identify objects by touch but I must have been wrong. I always thought that conjurers has developed some kind of magical spatial awareness and that was why I said things about sense things like false drows and skeletons in the wall. Again thanks for the patience

Last edited by veon (2016-07-01 22:11:40)

veon · 2016-07-01 22:08:53

Eric Storm wrote:
veon:

First, just a correction, they are called "Rimohrs". I know, it's a completely made-up word, making it even harder to learn, but...

As to your question, I think you are confusing, to some extent, Conjuring and Divination.

Conjuring is not allowed during investigations. This is because the evidence quite literally disappears, and there's no way to guarantee that the evidence that reappears is the same evidence. The situations you're bringing up, such as stopping someone from escaping, aren't really part of an investigation, but more of an arrest attempt. David's response to the question posed by the interviewer assumes the "normal" job role of a Rimohr, which supposes he will not need to chase his suspect.

Divination is not allowed during investigation except under very specific circumstances prescribed by law. This is for a couple reasons: 1) No one knows what the diviner saw, except the diviner. It is essentially hearsay. 2) It's too easy to fool even an honest seer by using anti-divination magic. This makes divination unreliable. Some particular exceptions are made, such as The Trace, which can be put on a wizard to keep track of their location, or during times where someone's life may be in jeopardy and the divination is more about rescue than arrest.

I hope I've cleared this matter up for you. If not, please feel free to reword your question.

Regards,
Eric Storm

but in your on chapter you show David going after someone who is trying to run so I feel that it is a little contradictory again love the story that was just something that bugged me

Last edited by veon (2016-07-01 22:13:09)

Barbarian3165 · 2016-07-02 00:39:54

I think he may be confusing the 'feeling of objects' he couldn't see and through walls, David had to do when he was learning advanced conjuring. I believe David had to know what he was looking for when he was trying to conjure blind, and maybe roughly where it was. But he also had to feel the empty space when he had to conjure something he could see into a place he couldn't see. So, maybe veon has a valid point... if David where in a suspects room, could he use conjuring to feel hidden places just off that room? I know he can't actually conjure in or out of the place, but could he simply feel the space without tainting the investigation?

Archangel1962 · 2016-07-02 01:13:42

LOL no your sex scenes are great. It happened to catch my eye for some reason though, and I know you like us to point things like that out so you can correct them.

veon · 2016-07-02 03:55:36

Barbarian3165 wrote:
I think he may be confusing the 'feeling of objects' he couldn't see and through walls, David had to do when he was learning advanced conjuring. I believe David had to know what he was looking for when he was trying to conjure blind, and maybe roughly where it was. But he also had to feel the empty space when he had to conjure something he could see into a place he couldn't see. So, maybe veon has a valid point... if David where in a suspects room, could he use conjuring to feel hidden places just off that room? I know he can't actually conjure in or out of the place, but could he simply feel the space without tainting the investigation?

Exactly my point plus situations with confrontation of suspects using conjuring to disarm and maybe bloc exit points... I mean theoretically if I am a master conjurer and someone is pointing a wand at me and is going to use it could I not conjure it out of the person hands also that make me question if a master conjurer has an magical extra spatial sense could he not develop an area of perception in with he would be completely aware of everything around himself some kind of bubble of total spatial omniscience and that would not make him potentially very skilled at close quarter fights? (with David had show himself to be since he started his staff and sword class that he at the time had already been very advanced in conjuring without forget the fact that before his death according to David original description fighting skills didn't seem be part of his habilities... so it is a coincidence or is Eric doing this on purpose or subconscious I don't know only he can tell)

Last edited by veon (2016-07-02 03:58:55)

Barbarian3165 · 2016-07-02 05:11:43

Conjuring something out of someone's hand may come into conflict with the magic of the person holding the object, at least that would be my assumption. A more interesting question is why doesn't David use conjuring like his first conjuring instructor (can't remember his name) used against Lyse... trying to dump things on her head? If David, having prepared by placing a bunch of decent sized rocks into his conjuring room suddenly started dropping them on the heads of the little gang war, it might of gone a little faster. Anyway 10 pound boulders falling out of the sky from twenty feet or more above the target could of had the bad guys hopping around too much to pay attention to the other Rhimors.

Last edited by Barbarian3165 (2016-07-02 05:12:22)

Eric Storm · 2016-07-02 07:43:58

Okay, people are STILL confusing conjuration with divination.

Yes, conjuring requires a spatial awareness, but no, you could not randomly attempt to find empty spaces in a house using conjuring, unless you were actually attempting to conjure an object. This would be EXTREMELY tiring, due to the concentration involved. You would literally have to hold the object in your mind while searching for a place to put it. Most wizards would not be able to do this for very long. (Remember, David is a remarkably strong conjurer.)

David's skill in Sword and Staff had exactly zero to do with conjuring. That was an advanced divinatory technique. He was using an awareness of the minds around him, not the bodies. Trying to focus on such spatial awareness would likely fully consume your concentration, and prevent you from doing much of anything else, whereas the mental awareness is less precise, but more useful.

To the concept of conjuring a wand out of someone's hand as they're about to zap you with it: There is a bit of a time factor here. Conjuring generally takes longer than spellcasting, because conjuring involves a spell (not said out loud in more advanced conjurers), as well as a concentration component, whereas spellcasting is much more focused on the spell. In other words, if you tried it, you'd get fried long before you could conjure the wand. If you actually had time to conjure the wand, you'd have enough time to do any of a dozen more useful things, like just getting out of the way and casting your own spell at your attacker. (Remember, wands are not the end-all and be-all of magic in Dugerra. Energy balls, for instance, do not require a wand for casting.)

As to dropping rocks on people: First off, you're suggesting he carry a bunch of large rocks (small boulders) around in his Conjuring Room. This would eat up magical energy for as long as he was doing so. Second, even a ten pound rock traveling at 20mph (its speed after falling 10-15 feet) is going to do some serious, serious damage to the people it hits. This is not David's style. He is far more focused when he gets really violent. He likes to know exactly who his target is.

As to David's chasing versus his answer to the question: He was answering a formal question about the nature of his Rimohr duties. He is going to focus far more on the legalities of doing the job than he is on the nuances of what little things might be useful here and there. It is about forty thousand times more important that "you cannot conjure evidence from here to there" than it is that "you CAN conjure a rock to make a fleeing perpetrator stumble over it so you can catch him." David wasn't giving a dissertation, he was giving a brief answer to a directed question. To expect that answer to cover every conceivable possibility is unrealistic.

I'd also like to point out that using any of a number of movement spells would be vastly faster than using conjuring to stop a fleeing suspect. Why conjure something in front of your fleeing suspect, when you can simply slide something that's already there along the ground in front of him? Or use bara, to knock him to the ground? Or just fling an energy ball or lightning bolt at him? This is a case where conjuring is an option, but it's not really a GOOD option, unless you can't manage anything else.

Eric Storm

veon · 2016-07-02 12:48:31

Eric Storm wrote:
Okay, people are STILL confusing conjuration with divination.

Yes, conjuring requires a spatial awareness, but no, you could not randomly attempt to find empty spaces in a house using conjuring, unless you were actually attempting to conjure an object. This would be EXTREMELY tiring, due to the concentration involved. You would literally have to hold the object in your mind while searching for a place to put it. Most wizards would not be able to do this for very long. (Remember, David is a remarkably strong conjurer.)

David's skill in Sword and Staff had exactly zero to do with conjuring. That was an advanced divinatory technique. He was using an awareness of the minds around him, not the bodies. Trying to focus on such spatial awareness would likely fully consume your concentration, and prevent you from doing much of anything else, whereas the mental awareness is less precise, but more useful.

To the concept of conjuring a wand out of someone's hand as they're about to zap you with it: There is a bit of a time factor here. Conjuring generally takes longer than spellcasting, because conjuring involves a spell (not said out loud in more advanced conjurers), as well as a concentration component, whereas spellcasting is much more focused on the spell. In other words, if you tried it, you'd get fried long before you could conjure the wand. If you actually had time to conjure the wand, you'd have enough time to do any of a dozen more useful things, like just getting out of the way and casting your own spell at your attacker. (Remember, wands are not the end-all and be-all of magic in Dugerra. Energy balls, for instance, do not require a wand for casting.)

As to dropping rocks on people: First off, you're suggesting he carry a bunch of large rocks (small boulders) around in his Conjuring Room. This would eat up magical energy for as long as he was doing so. Second, even a ten pound rock traveling at 20mph (its speed after falling 10-15 feet) is going to do some serious, serious damage to the people it hits. This is not David's style. He is far more focused when he gets really violent. He likes to know exactly who his target is.

As to David's chasing versus his answer to the question: He was answering a formal question about the nature of his Rimohr duties. He is going to focus far more on the legalities of doing the job than he is on the nuances of what little things might be useful here and there. It is about forty thousand times more important that "you cannot conjure evidence from here to there" than it is that "you CAN conjure a rock to make a fleeing perpetrator stumble over it so you can catch him." David wasn't giving a dissertation, he was giving a brief answer to a directed question. To expect that answer to cover every conceivable possibility is unrealistic.

I'd also like to point out that using any of a number of movement spells would be vastly faster than using conjuring to stop a fleeing suspect. Why conjure something in front of your fleeing suspect, when you can simply slide something that's already there along the ground in front of him? Or use bara, to knock him to the ground? Or just fling an energy ball or lightning bolt at him? This is a case where conjuring is an option, but it's not really a GOOD option, unless you can't manage anything else.

Eric Storm

Ok Eric thanks. Just to clarify I understand why David answered that now but that don't change my point someone trying to run that is in the middle of a crowd is a situation in with you can't go using offensive spell I still believe that conjuring would help in at least slowing the criminal and making the prison simpler but that is irrelevant now. My real mistake was that I thought that conjuration was faster and less of a problem at least at David level of habilit. I believed that for him do something like conjure cuffs on someone feet for example would take maybe 15 sec tops and as you said his mind perception skill could make his conjuring even more precise and faster but again I made a series of assumptions that apparently are wrong so sorry for disturbing you. Hypothetical question here let's assume that since David is a level five conjuration master with so little time of studying it would he not have potential to advance the conjuration skills and ("science"/skillset/theorycal field) since he is so talented in it I mean I had the impression in his avaluetion that he still have potential to grow as a conjurer if not simple taking his currently skill level as his limits you have previously you (in a previous year forum I think) that if someone dedicate a lot of time and effort that person could push his magical limits even if in a slower pace that the formal level of training show as peak skill that doesn't mean that David could not be a very fast conjurer since in David master evaluation speed conjuring was one of the aspects being tested? Thanks again

Last edited by veon (2016-07-02 15:13:33)

SlaveMaster · 2016-07-02 15:27:59

I'm sure I will... 3dsmile
But that's a year and a half away lol

I've been figuring that the country or Woodward is going to go to war at some point the signs are all there, starting with when the alpha of that other country having died . Also with David's training and other minor stuff.

Was the attacks on the pub by that group a reflection of when we got hacked?

Eric Storm · 2016-07-02 17:16:18

veon: Okay, in your concept of conjuration, two things to correct: Conjuring handcuffs onto a prisoner would take nowhere near 15 seconds. HOWEVER, point number 2: Conjuring handcuffs onto a MOVING prisoner would be almost impossible. You would be forever adjusting the destination of your conjure, and by the time you then actually DID the conjure, the destination would need to move again. No, again, this is a situation where it would actually be much more expedient to simply use a movement spell to slide something into his path of travel.

To your hypothetical question: The thing is that there isn't really any new theory to learn in conjuring. Speed is a matter of practice, but there is a practical limit to speed simply due to the number of actions that are required to be taken. The human mind has a speed limit, so no matter how good you get at conjuring, you will always have a certain limit beyond which it is simply not possible to go. Will David's skills in conjuring grow as he gets more experience? Sure. But it is highly, highly unlikely that he would discover anything "new" in the field of conjuring.

SlaveMaster: An interesting thought, but no, that wasn't running through my mind when I wrote it.

Question for thought: You think Bridget has had sex with David yet, or not?

3dbig_smile

Eric Storm

veon · 2016-07-02 18:01:18

You mean that the conjuration masters don't do research in the field I mean is one of the things that guilds are supose to do you know (regulation and treining and qualite control and research are traditionaly guild responsabilites) but even if the they don't do so you became a master and you don't do research in the field I mean they are supposed to be highly trained experts?
A master healer or a potion master or master diviner or in this case a master conjurer when they succeed in attaining the peak mastery in their own fields they don't do research they don't try new angles new theories and experiments in their respective fields there's no more study areas to explore or improve no new wonders or ideas? All the knowledge in that area has been already attained? I think it unrealistic and weird but it is your story and I love the series. Again thanks for answering me.

Last edited by veon (2016-07-02 18:05:47)

Eric Storm · 2016-07-02 20:05:19

Obviously potions masters do research. David had to invent potions to become a potions master.

This is a situation unique to conjuring, that there appears to be nothing new to learn. Tell me, if a thousand masters spend fifty years trying to find something new, and NONE of them succeed, is it then logical for anyone to spend their time doing so? This is the kind of scenario with Conjuring. No one has discovered anything new in Conjuring for centuries.

Other fields of endeavor are completely different. New potions are discovered all the time. Divination grows as new methods are found and old methods are refined.

But hell, you'll note that Herbology doesn't even HAVE a guild, they only have trade associations. Each skillset is handled in its own fashion, because it has to be. In the case of conjuring, they don't bother doing research because it has proven to be a fruitless endeavor, and who wants to spend their life failing?

Eric Storm

Barbarian3165 · 2016-07-02 22:34:41

Just wondering, don't really expect an answer, but could the person being visited in prison by the serial killer be a 'dead stick witch/wizard'? Oh, and what would happen to a 'dead stick witch/wizard' in an earth jail that used magic?

Eric Storm · 2016-07-02 22:48:09

To the first question: They could, in theory, but what difference would it make? (BTW, it is "dead wand", and they are ALL "wizards". Witchcraft is a religion in the Dugerran universe.)

To the second question: They would be transferred (through channels) to Rimohr custody.

Eric Storm

Barbarian3165 · 2016-07-02 23:23:08

Just envisioning a possible connection between the serial killer's pentagram/hexagram ritual and the person he/she is visiting in the prison. Maybe the mastermind is in jail and the guy doing the ritual killing is following the instructions of the person in jail.

Last edited by Barbarian3165 (2016-07-02 23:23:31)

veon · 2016-07-03 23:01:02

Eric Storm wrote:
Obviously potions masters do research. David had to invent potions to become a potions master.

This is a situation unique to conjuring, that there appears to be nothing new to learn. Tell me, if a thousand masters spend fifty years trying to find something new, and NONE of them succeed, is it then logical for anyone to spend their time doing so? This is the kind of scenario with Conjuring. No one has discovered anything new in Conjuring for centuries.

Other fields of endeavor are completely different. New potions are discovered all the time. Divination grows as new methods are found and old methods are refined.

But hell, you'll note that Herbology doesn't even HAVE a guild, they only have trade associations. Each skillset is handled in its own fashion, because it has to be. In the case of conjuring, they don't bother doing research because it has proven to be a fruitless endeavor, and who wants to spend their life failing?

Eric Storm

I just think strange in a field of space perception and manipulation there's no more mystery no theory when science still has things to learn about it conjuring has exhausted but science has moments of false "no more secrets" before Newton and Einstein and that guy with the peas that theorized genetics I mean you are the author and is your world I just think that is strange that Conjuring is a no research field

Eric Storm · 2016-07-03 23:16:05

You are equating one small (yes, small) area of magic with the entire sum of science. You're not comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing a single apple seed to every apple orchard on the planet.

There ARE areas of science where nothing meaningful is really left to discover, unless you find a way to apply the more advanced sciences to them.

As a for-instance: Who researches arithmetic? (Please note, I did not say "mathematics", I said "arithmetic".) This is one small area of math about which there really is nothing more to learn, UNLESS you are applying higher-order mathematics to its usage. But your 'research' into arithmetic is usually finished before you turn twelve. At that point, you will know everything there really is to know about arithmetic. Does that make arithmetic less important somehow? No. Nor does it make it less powerful. But it does make it a lot less likely to be a research topic for anyone.

So, yes, Conjuring is one small area of magic that is complete. If there IS more to learn about it, it would require more power than is available to most wizards. (Keep in mind that even personal teleportation has already been discovered... it's just that it has only been actually accomplished by four wizards in all of known history, because it is that difficult to do.) If there is, in fact, more conjuring to learn in this realm, Dugerrans would not waste their time trying to find it. What is the import of knowledge that cannot be used?

Eric Storm

veon · 2016-07-04 16:35:02

Eric Storm wrote:
You are equating one small (yes, small) area of magic with the entire sum of science. You're not comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing a single apple seed to every apple orchard on the planet.

There ARE areas of science where nothing meaningful is really left to discover, unless you find a way to apply the more advanced sciences to them.

As a for-instance: Who researches arithmetic? (Please note, I did not say "mathematics", I said "arithmetic".) This is one small area of math about which there really is nothing more to learn, UNLESS you are applying higher-order mathematics to its usage. But your 'research' into arithmetic is usually finished before you turn twelve. At that point, you will know everything there really is to know about arithmetic. Does that make arithmetic less important somehow? No. Nor does it make it less powerful. But it does make it a lot less likely to be a research topic for anyone.

So, yes, Conjuring is one small area of magic that is complete. If there IS more to learn about it, it would require more power than is available to most wizards. (Keep in mind that even personal teleportation has already been discovered... it's just that it has only been actually accomplished by four wizards in all of known history, because it is that difficult to do.) If there is, in fact, more conjuring to learn in this realm, Dugerrans would not waste their time trying to find it. What is the import of knowledge that cannot be used?

Eric Storm

Ok Erik I got your point this was a misunderstanding problem I thought that conjuring was a hightier and more profound art not the magical equivalent of arithmetic I mean we are talking about dimensional manipulation here but it's ok I am of the opinion the it is your world so your rules it just bugs me. Thanks again

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