The Pub Discussion Board

J.A.W. wrote:

Nothing kills my interest in writing more than something like, "I really enjoyed this story and look forward to seeing the next part."  If you enjoyed it, I want to know why you enjoyed it.

Well, I think every writer wants to know why -- but given the paucity of feedback, I'd be afraid to demand that lest I get nothing at all.

Your comments surprised me. Between a "thank you" and silence, which would you prefer? Have you reached the point that you get enough feedback that the basic "thank you" is a creative deterrent? I'm genuinely curious, because your position does seem atypical, at least in the humble circles I've traveled.

I'm never at a loss for new ideas either -- indeed, I know I already have more than I can ever hope to begin, much less finish -- but I make a huge investment of effort and emotion into a story before I can start stringing words together. If I used a lack of feedback to judge whether to continue writing, I'd never get past Chapter One of anything, and I'd feel like I was killing all of my children. Maybe I need a new process; what's yours?

The real point though, is NOTHING encourages me to write like negative feedback.  Telling me you dislike something, and even more why you dislike it gives me something to strive for and work towards.

Fascinating. I've actually experienced that once -- someone said he'd hungrily read chapter after chapter of something only to be frustrated because I never actually got to the good stuff. It did have an effect on what came after, but I'm not sure it was better, just different -- and it made the writing harder. In a way, I never recovered

If a particular story doesn't generate the feedback (or cash, , not that I've ever gotten paid for anything) to help me, I'd rather drop it and try another story altogether in the hope of finding something that will 'click' with the readers.

But but but why can't readers just be thrilled to read what we want to write?

Imagineer wrote:

Your comments surprised me. Between a "thank you" and silence, which would you prefer?

Silence.  I write because I have something to say.  If all a person has to say is "thank you," then they didn't get it.  What I had to say simply wasn't striking enough, or what they thought I was saying wasn't what I really saying, or something that I thought was interesting enough to write about wasn't.  Silence could happen for many reasons, but my assumption is that it's because my story has given the reader something to think about, which is a good thing.

Imagineer wrote:

Have you reached the point that you get enough feedback that the basic "thank you" is a creative deterrent? I'm genuinely curious, because your position does seem atypical, at least in the humble circles I've traveled.

It's more that I feel I'm simply not good enough for just a "Thank You" to be meaningful.  I want to write, yes, but more importantly, I want to improve.  If a story doesn't generate what I need to improve, then I'd rather work on something that will give me what I need.  After all, I'll enjoy writing anything that I write: good or bad, whether I finish it or not.

I realize my attitude is somewhat unusual, but as my writing's gotten better, I've run across more and more people with the same attitude.  I'm corresponding with one right now.  She's a professional editor and paid author.

Imagineer wrote:

If I used a lack of feedback to judge whether to continue writing, I'd never get past Chapter One of anything, and I'd feel like I was killing all of my children. Maybe I need a new process; what's yours?

Start with an idea.  Start writing. Reach a breakpoint in the story and put it out for comments.  If all it generates is "that's nice," start something new.  About 80% of what I write doesn't go beyond chapter 1 because it doesn't generate the right feedback.  I've yet to finish anything I've started.  Some things I've written come very close to standing on their own merits though, and I have finally (as of May this year actually) reached the point where I feel I'm good enough to write something worth finishing.  I never feel like I'm "killing" the stories, because I've never felt they were good enough to stand on their own.  I accept that they're stillborn and move on, possibly coming back to them later if I feel I can fix their flaws.  (There's this anime-style story I've been thinking of going back to . . .)

Looking back over this post I realize that there are a few things I've finished.  The main one is the writing exercise that convinced me that I was good enough.  "Take a traditional fairy tale and rewrite it for modern times."  I took "The Three Billy Goats Gruff" and set it in modern Zaire.  The story isn't very good on its own merits, but I can point to it as heading in the direction I want to go, and it is a complete story.

That's very shallow of you.

Net Wolf

Here is a though that might increase reviews put the feedback form above the story. I rarely see it during the story because I just never need to scroll down that far I use the keyboard to navigate the story and I personally have my browser set so the story just fits inside the window. I usually just forget and get side tracked and forget to review.

Hey! Quit making me feel guilty! I'll comment, with more than simple promises to comment, I promise!

-The N Storm

Exactly.  That left hand column is already overcrowded.  Adding anything to it is only going to make the situation worse.

Net Wolf

Hmmm.  Flash pop-up video ads......... 

Seriously, though, I understand the issue.  Unless you scroll the page - something most people probably never do - you don't see the Feedback form.  I'm just not sure the best way to fix the problem.  Perhaps if I also put a feedback form inside the story box itself, at the end?  That way they would be reminded it's there, but there would still be a feedback box on the page if they didn't finish reading the story, and wanted the author to know why...  Though doing so would almost certainly violate the Critiquing Guidelines...

Net Wolf

I can pretty much bet that'd be annoying to people.  I know that the things that follow the screen in that fashion usually are.

Besides, I think putting a message right below the window would achieve the same thing... that is usually on screen if you have your window maximized.  (And why do people read with their windows not maximized?  How many things can you read at once, anyway??? )

Net Wolf

On the story's main page (not a reading page) you could put the feedback box above the forum comment thread instead of below it. (This breaks the standard of a forum thread, where the reply box is at the bottom, but maybe that's worth sacrificing to put "feedback" in the reader's face.)

I downrezzed to 1024x768 and I see the "problem" with the Feedback Form... I hate to see any page get busier but a message right below the window (maybe centered text bracketed by down-pointing triangles to the effect of "give the contributor your feedback below") seems like a good idea.

I haven't paid attention to how the site looks on entry in a while... does a new visitor get exposed to the idea that creative people really really really want / crave / need their feedback? People problems can be helped by education, and even more by advertising

BTW, I think it would be better if the posters' signatures didn't appear in the story page's rendition of the forum thread. Some people apparently have rather effusive signatures, and on a page that's got a lot of info to convey, it's distracting. JMHO.

I think that could work.  Again I don't know if this would work or not but is it possible to have what is obviously a text entry window below the menu with feedback as its header and if a person starts typing in it the box will then expand out covering the story section but giving lots of room with minimum wrapping needed.

If that is vapor ware then never mind.

Net Wolf wrote:

Feedback forms on a non-reading page will never increase feedback for a story.  Fact of life:  People will not go looking for a way to give feedback.

Most people have to pass through the main story page to get to the reading page. But if the feedback box there isn't effective, why have it there at all? Anyway, if you don't like the idea of moving it to the top of that page, don't do it.

No, there's not really a permanent notice that says, "Hey, Give Feedback!"  I don't know where you would put it... as if it wasn't a self-evident thing to say...

You should know by now that what you consider self-evident (or common sense) simply isn't. You are a person of exceptional intelligence and rationality. (This is, I suspect, a source of endless consternation.) Most people need hand-holding -- lots and lots of hand-holding. If you want something from them, being explicit and repetitive and flat-out smashing them upside the cranium with a message isn't overkill, it's just a good start.

We live in a passive world, where vast quantities of entertainment are served up with no feedback required. "Pay for it, or watch these commercial messages, then sit there and let it wash over you." The amateur writer and his/her insatiable thirst for approval/validation/reaction/discourse/analysis is, from the consumer's point of view, an anomaly. And for all the talkback that mass media gets, it's a tiny tiny fraction of the audience, and it's generally spent on the audience, not the creators, who are not so accessible or as mortal-seeming as you and I. I say that our audience is not well-versed in or thoughtful of the relationship we desire with them. They need education, and then they may need convincing.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

Of course, too much begging is unseemly, and too much education is preachy. People can only be dragged so far before kicking and screaming is involved.

As for Javascript, it's fine as long as it's used unobtrusively. I like things that don't get in the way. You already have a non-Javascript version, so there's little harm in you trying something new.

This probably won't help but you could add giving feedback and reporting grammer or plot mistakes in the You Can Help! Time and Talent respectively. Or something along those lines for those people you look at the pages and don't see much that they can do or don't want to visit outside sites.