The Pub Discussion Board

Update for June 7, 2020:

WAY8-10 has been sent to the reviewers.  YES, it's still slated for August 1.  NO, I'm not going to speed that up, even though it seems likely that ch. 11, which I will start on tomorrow (or later today, if you want to be very picky), will be done by the end of June.

Eric Storm

Elessar wrote:

I’m not one to usually complain about results, but is it possible that you are putting the chapters out to fast and possibly lacking some ... well something from the story?

...He says to the man who just a couple days ago told everyone that he was doing his own review-read of a chapter, before even sending it to the reviewers.

Don't you think it'd be a good idea to, oh, I don't know, read the chapter before you start bitching about it?  WHAT, exactly, do you think might be missing from the story?  I already bitch-slapped one reader for being completely vague and unhelpful in their post... Looks like I get to do it again.

Do you even read your posts before you submit them?  I re-read every post I send, at least once, before submitting it.  What I often see from you is what we like to call "diarrhea of the mouth": shit spews out of you before it can be stopped by rational thought.

I have exactly one writing pace:  I write the words down exactly as fast as they come to me.  If they come quickly, they get written quickly.  If they come slowly, they get written slowly.  You seem to be operating under the delusion that when I'm writing slowly, I'm writing more carefully.  NO, I'm simply spending most of my time NOT WRITING.  The last three chapters of WAY8 have been some of the most heavily edited chapters I have ever produced.  I have re-read each chapter at least four times, not counting when I wrote it, and I have made edits each and every run-through.

I am not pushing myself to write more.  I am being pushed to write more, by the same impulse that makes me write at all.

WAY8-10 was written over a period of 8 days, 7 of which I actually wrote something.  The largest word count in that period was 7,179 words.  That is somewhat misleading, however, as one of the scenes on that day had already been written, and it was a 2500-ish word scene.  (Mind you, it was written within that 8-day period.  Just not on THAT day in the 8-day period.)

In 2003, I produced 365,000 words.  That's 1,000 words per day, average.  To do that, I wrote 10,000 words that last day.  THAT, was me pushing myself. (I really wanted to say I'd written 1000 words a day.)  I think it was the next year (2004), or might have been the year after, I ended up writing 400,000 words.  I didn't push myself that year.  I just had a good year.

What I am doing now is not "weird" or "unusual" for me.  It is what happens when I am in a writing groove.  That writing groove is also being amplified by what I refer to as the "End of Project Push".  That isn't ME pushing to finish the project.  That's the PROJECT pushing to be finished.  Think of it this way:  Most authors start out with the beginning of the story well-defined.  A slightly smaller majority also start with the very end of the story well-defined.  It's the middle part where things often get muddled.  So, it is natural that, at the start of a book, we write quickly.  In the middle of the book, we will often get bogged down.  As we approach the end of the book, first off, we know where we're going.  SECOND off, we want to see the characters reach the finish line just as much as you do!  Difference is, we can make that happen faster.  You can't.  (Nyah nyah na nyah nyah!!!  )

So, unless you want to actually point out something that's missing... shut up and enjoy the story.

Eric Storm

PS:  Re-red this post twicet befour posting it,

Update #2 for June 7, 2020:

I know this will be highly upsetting to Elessar, but...

The Woodward Academy, Year 8, Chapter 11: April, has been started.

Eric Storm

To make it up to Elessar, just add book 9 to the plan!

Well until I see the ending of book 8 I wouldn't even know where to begin and even though Woodward is one of my all time favorites I'm pretty excited to move on to whatever comes next.

Eric Storm wrote:

I wish just one of you people that mention a book 9 had even one reasonable notion of what would go in it.

Eric Storm

No I think this story line with david is done but I would like to see more dugerra stories circle is interesting another would be after the daileys die out and the others like David (Demighosts) are released that could generate several stories

Well, it depends on what you would want to make of the story. I could easily imagine David and may be a demighost ally or two trying to control the ones that went crazy, uniting the rest to may be creating some sort of Dugerran ghost state in a location with more easily haven accesible areas, may be expanded with some kind of spells and all the issues a ghost/demighost state in the real world would bring, all of this brought up by the discrimination and rejection that many of those liberated demighost suffered from regular dugerrans and also giving regular ghosts a place on Dugerra to call their own. Simultaneously exploring and expanding the lore regarding what haven and life after death there actually is, expanding on haven magic and applying it towards something that would actually give meaning to the dugerran afterlife which currently seems pretty devoid off, which till now has been the least explored "plane of existence/world" of the dugerran universe. 

Or the technological world starting to discover how to manipulate magic fields through technological means (with good and bad parties in the developing conflict, also any of those parties, or even a neutral one, doing something that threatens damage to the dugerran world (may be someone creating a "free energy" generator based on the usage of magic fields, which would be draining it from Dugerra, affecting local magic and particularly magic creatures, the creator being oblivious to what he/she is doing), then David investigating what the hell is happening, finding out the cause, dealing with it in one way or another, etc. Plenty of ways to create conflict and character development, sacrifice, story development this way.

Oh, there are plenty of ways to expand the story, but it all depends on what you feel comfortable with and what you, Eric, feel that fits in your world. On the other hand I do agree, that after eight-nine years, it´s kind of time to give David a rest for a little while. There is always the possibility of coming back to him later.

Last edited by Augur (2020-06-11 14:08:40)

Augur:

Wow, some massive misunderstanding of the world going on here...

Well, it depends on what you would want to make of the story. I could easily imagine David and may be a demighost ally or two trying to control the ones that went crazy, uniting the rest to may be creating some sort of Dugerran ghost state in a location with more easily haven accesible areas,

99.9999999% of Dugerra has direct access to Haven.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are ghosts visible all over the place.  In fact, we have only seen one place in Dugerra where the barrier was NOT thin enough for visibility or transfer (in the case of demighosts).

Further, what would be the point of a ghost state?  Most ghosts cannot interact with the solid world.  Those who can are limited.  Ghosts have no need of a land of their own.  As to demighosts... there are a few dozen of them in existence, total, all over the place.  Why would THEY need a land of their own?

may be expanded with some kind of spells and all the issues a ghost/demighost state in the real world would bring, all of this brought up by the discrimination and rejection that many of those liberated demighost suffered from regular dugerrans

The demighosts brought that discrimination upon themselves through their behavior.  MOST of them know that.  And... why are we making the land even bigger?  The only people who could actually occupy it are the few dozen demighosts.

and also giving regular ghosts a place on Dugerra to call their own.

Ghosts do not exist in Dugerra.  They exist in Haven.  They CANNOT leave Haven, because they do not have solid bodies with which to do so.  That said, Haven is vaster than Dugerra and Earth put together.  Why would they need a place in the solid world set aside for them?  Take away all the living people, and you've removed the only thing that would keep the ghosts interested in the place to begin with.

Simultaneously exploring and expanding the lore regarding what haven and life after death there actually is, expanding on haven magic and applying it towards something that would actually give meaning to the dugerran afterlife which currently seems pretty devoid off, which till now has been the least explored "plane of existence/world" of the dugerran universe.

How do you explore vast emptiness?  Haven is empty, with the exception of a few very small corners which have been decorated by those ghost wizards capable of ghosting real-world objects.  There is one class of monster: the mortessor, which has been discussed in as much detail as needs be.  As to "meaning to the afterlife"... How do you have meaning to "The Waiting Room to the Abyss"?  Haven doesn't change.  Haven CANNOT change.  What kind of meaning could you give such a place?

And the phrase "dugerran [sic] afterlife" is nonsensical.  There is only ONE afterlife.  ALL people who die, wizard or not, end up in Haven.  Therefore, the vast majority of Havenites are NOT wizards, and probably wouldn't want to have a land in Dugerra even if they could occupy it.

Or the technological world starting to discover how to manipulate magic fields through technological means (with good and bad parties in the developing conflict, also any of those parties, or even a neutral one, doing something that threatens damage to the dugerran world (may be someone creating a "free energy" generator based on the usage of magic fields, which would be draining it from Dugerra, affecting local magic and particularly magic creatures, the creator being oblivious to what he/she is doing), then David investigating what the hell is happening, finding out the cause, dealing with it in one way or another, etc. Plenty of ways to create conflict and character development, sacrifice, story development this way.

Except for the niggling fact that it ignores the already revealed truth about magic.  Magic is a universal energy field.  You cannot drain it from one place by using it in another.  It's like suggesting that black holes are draining gravity from the rest of universe because they're using so much of it.

Oh, there are plenty of ways to expand the story, but it all depends on what you feel comfortable with and what you, Eric, feel that fits in your world.

You only hit on ONE possibility that works within the already-established framework of the universe, and that would be the technos discovering how to use the magic energy field.  This would ultimately lead to the Mage Wars, as the technos and the wizards hashed things out.  All the rest of what you suggested makes no sense, not because of what I feel fits, but because it has already been discredited by what is written down.

On the other hand I do agree, that after eight-nine years, it´s kind of time to give David a rest for a little while. There is always the possibility of coming back to him later.

And, of course, here's where you made the biggest goof:  Even if they were options, not a single one of the stories you mentioned would qualify for a "book 9", which is what the original issue was about.  Everything you've mentioned happens years - or even centuries - into the future.  Hardly the basis for, "What happens next year?"


DeathDemon:

You could explore is something similar to what Jim Butcher did with the Dresden Files. Since David is a detective you could do time skips between books where he works giant cases and explore his life and other things through those cases.

And this is similar to what I have offered as the only possible "Book 9", and it wouldn't be called that.  And that is a short-story anthology detailing David's life through time.  Not necessarily being about investigations or any one particular thing, but just relating what David's doing with his life a hundred, a thousand, a million years after the end of the series.

Another thing I have always thought about, since David is a Demighost and doesn't need to breath, couldn't you explore space? I know that's just too far out there considering the genre but it would be fun to read.

There are some other reasons that space exploration without protective gear is probably not a great idea... you know, like near-absolute-zero-degree temperatures in deep space...  David would make a good astronaut because his life support gear would be seriously reduced, yes.  In fact, I had planned that as part of the aforementioned short story anthology, where it would NOT be out of place, given the nature of the collection.

Similarly, David would be good at deep sea exploration.  Cannot get nitrogen narcosis if you have no blood for nitrogen to leech out of.  But, again, he couldn't do it unaided.

Eric Storm

No, what you see are ways to evade the universe's current structure by piling plot devices on top of each other until they're ready to topple under their own weight.

That's not how you write a good story.

A good story should use as few plot devices as it can manage.  Avoiding them altogether is impossible, because life itself contains "plot devices" at times.

But figuring a trick to find a way around the - absolutely unambiguously stated - rule, "Ghosts Cannot Leave Haven"... is a plot device the size of the Empire State Building, placed on top of a story the size of a mouse.

As to your thesis on the nature of magic...  First off, go study these things we call paragraphs.  I could barely get through reading your text because it was one huge block of thought with no breaks. 

As to the actual content...  I actually started to write out an explanation of what's wrong with your idea.  I decided that the half hour I'd have spent wasting my time trying to convince you would be more profitably spent writing on WAY8-11.  Something tells me that my other readers would agree.  Just know that I see huge plot holes in your idea that would require the same sized plot device as the ghosts idea.

Eric Storm

So, it's rude to tell you why what you've suggested doesn't work.

I see.

So I'm just supposed to fawn over any and all ideas that are thrown my way, and then just ignore them because they're actually useless?  Sorry, I consider that a form of lying, AND it doesn't get a useful result for either party.  My goal in all communications of this type - EVEN WITH YOU - is to come out the other end with a story idea I might actually be able to use at some point.

The reason you get repeatedly blasted is very simple:  You refuse to alter your ideas, and instead continue to simply insist that your idea is valid and works... in MY universe.  At that point, you're just arguing with me, yourself.  You are doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing: being rude.

Yes, you are absolutely, 100% right that I will tell anyone whose idea is clearly in violation of universe rules, that their idea doesn't work.  I will explain to them WHY it doesn't work.  NO, I don't put forth a whole lot of effort trying to make that sound warm and fuzzy.  It's a technical discussion, and I treat it as such. 

Those who are truly helpful - and there are plenty, despite what you imply - will take my objections, think about how to modify their ideas to overcome those objections, and re-present their idea for further consideration.  I love those conversations.  Many story ideas have come from such conversations.  But here's the thing:  The idea must be malleable, but the universe must be constant.  And the universe is defined by the author.

Virtually no story idea works in its original form.  Not mine, not yours, not anybody's.  There are always shifts and tweaks to be made.  I had a conversation with one of my reviewers just a few days ago where I presented an idea, THEY told ME why it was a horrible idea, and, on reading their comments, I agreed with them, and I have since modified the idea for the scene.  That's how this whole thing works.

You, however, refuse to budge from your ideas.  You merely give them more detail in your posts, but the idea itself is still the same one... that I told you doesn't work.  THAT is why I get annoyed, and that is why my second and subsequent posts to you on a specific conversation tend to get rather more pointed.

You're so wrapped up in "your way" that you apparently didn't bother to observe how many other, very pleasant, story discussions have gone on.  It has NOTHING to do with people seeing things "my way".  What good would that be?  If everyone saw things "my way", we'd all have the same ideas, and I wouldn't even need to write the story, just a basic description.  Everyone could imagine the rest for themselves.  It's about "give and take":  You give me an idea, and then you take from my response clues to making your idea more useful, and then you give me the new idea.  Lather, rinse, repeat, until a new story idea is born.

So, you do what you want.  You can choose to see me as the rude one if you like.  There's nothing I can do about that.  Truth is, I tend to give the attitude I've received, over time.  And from you, I've received a fair amount of perceived condescension.  That could merely be a difficulty in crossed communication styles, but that is how you come across.  As such, no, I don't look forward to your posts.  I usually find them to be unpleasant in tone, whether or not they are helpful in content.

As an example, your announcement in your post that you are no longer going to give me story ideas... was that supposed to make me come crawling on my knees, apologizing profusely for my attitude and begging you to continue giving me... ideas that I don't use?  Yeah, no matter how you intended it, that came across as condescending and arrogant.

So, as I said, do what you want.  You can lurk and read, like 99% of the people who visit this site, or you can attempt to be helpful... in the understanding that I am NOT going to treat you like royalty just because you did.

Eric Storm

Update for June 12, 2020:

This will be upsetting to one or two people, and will be a shock to a lot, because this is something I just don't do.

I have marked Lira's Home as Abandoned.

The simple truth is I haven't written anything on this story in over a decade.  The author name on its DOC file is still "Net Wolf", for crying out loud.  I see no real possibility of this story moving forward.  I'm not going to remove what's here, but it has been clearly marked as "Abandoned" in its status line.  I love the character of Lira, and Kit, but I just couldn't get myself into the world.  I may resurrect Lira and Kit in a different story.  She'd probably be a little older, though.  I don't tend to write mid-teen stories these days, so maybe an 18- or 19-year-old girl, instead of 14.

Perhaps in a Dugerraverse novel somehow... she'd fit in there...

Hmm.

In related news, I'm also declaring the Fallon Authors Society as defunct.  I have edited its page to indicate that.  Other than that, no changes will be made.  The stories will remain available.  I will encourage the other authors to mark their stories as Abandoned, as well... unless they actually foresee working on them...

Also... potentially upsetting to more people, I am considering marking Paladin as Abandoned, as well.  The last chapter of that was posted in May of 2010, and I really have little interest in the character or his life.  I had hoped that throwing Luke from Justice Seven into the mix would help, and it did give me at least a direction to go, but... the interest I'd hoped to generate in myself just never appeared.  So, while I haven't made up my mind on this yet, don't be surprised if it gets marked Abandoned soon, as well.

Why all this status-fiddling?  As I reach the end of Woodward, I'm thinking about my options, and all my stories, and so I'm "cleaning house", as they say.  Nothing more sinister than that.

Eric Storm

You keep insisting that my responses to you were "disrespectful".  Okay, fine, how about we try this:

You tell ME, according to you, how do you "respectfully" tell someone, "No, your idea does not work, and here is why."  Because that is all I have ever done in my responses to you.

I have explained to you - in detail - how I felt your communications to me were... shall we say "suboptimal"... but you keep using vague generalities, with no specifics whatsoever.  "Rude" and "disrespectful" are the only two terms you've used to describe what you felt was wrong with how I am communicating with you, but you have never once said HOW I was being rude or disrespectful, nor how I could have improved those communications and still gotten across the same message.

It very much sounds, from this end, like unless I agree with you that your ideas are good ones, I'm being rude and disrespectful.

And that is exactly what you accused me of.

Eric Storm

Update for June 15, 2020:

The Woodward Academy, Year 8, Chapter 11: April, has been finished.  As with the last one, this one will be held for a couple days to do a pre-review proof of the entire chapter.

Eric Storm