The Pub Discussion Board

Eric I at least did not mention bombing because it is far more complicated than most people think and assumed the technical expertise did not exist nor the hardware. assuming this could be imported from earth you would have the maintenance problem you have brought up earlier.  Unless and I do not know--can you make a magical smart bomb? one that guides itself. If you could you wouldnt need airplanes make them fire and forget or from artillary

I find it amusing: the stuff you think is easy, is hard, and the stuff you think is hard, is easy.

Bombing is NOT complicated.  Laser-guided bombing is complicated.  Bombing is nothing more than dropping out of a plane something that will explode when it hits the ground.  Yes, precision will require something a bit more sophisticated than that, but David has already built bombs: modifying those for contact-detonation would be pretty easy.  Guidance could be handled with a spell.  It would require a bombardier onboard the craft, as he would have to guide in the bomb.  Not at all sure why you thought this needed to be more complex than this.

As to using an Earth camera:  Quick question:  Who's going to process the film?

Dugerrans have neither photo labs nor computers.  "Cameras" are completely foreign devices to them.  You would have to bring in the necessary equipment, the necessary chemicals, teach someone to operate it, and someone to maintain it...

And let's not forget that aircraft are moving.  A movie camera with a telephoto lens needs a rock-stable platform to shoot from.  So you're going to have to stabilize the camera mount, and you're probably going to need a high-speed camera, not a standard movie camera.  at 24fps, an aircraft moving at 100mph will travel 6 feet per frame.  That's not going to make for particularly clear images.  This could be helped somewhat by a tracking spell, but given the telephoto lens, high-speed film would still be your best bet.  And that means more film to process, compounding the issue.

A better option than a movie camera would be a still camera with a rapid-fire shutter.  High shutter speeds would reduce the motion blur.  However, you would only be able to use it in bright daylight, otherwise you wouldn't have enough light to see anything in the shot.  (This would actually be a problem for all methods...)  It would still have to be massively stabilized, and I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone to see anything through the viewfinder in order to know when to take the pictures.

I'm not saying these problems cannot be overcome.  It's just not a "plug and play" situation, like you implied it would be.

Eric Storm

In fact... (he adds in yet again...)

We know there are privacy fields.  All they'd have to do is enact one, and it would completely obliterate the usefulness of any kind of reconnaissance.  Oh, you'd be able to know where the enemy WAS (you hardly need any cameras or anything for that, anyway...), but you wouldn't be able to get any further information.

Yes, privacy fields also block your view of the outside, but that is easily solved by stationing guards right outside the field.  And remember that a privacy field WILL show you the outside, if what's outside represents an imminent danger.

So, again, my original point stands:  Aerial reconnaissance would work for only as long as it took the enemy to figure out what you were doing.

Eric Storm

I grant you every point you made, but why, exactly, did you completely ignore the other kind of bombing that avoids anti-aircraft fire?

If you don't want to get shot, you can either fly very high... OR you can fly low and fast.  Come in at treetop level, and they won't have time to hit you.  Given that a magical aircraft of this type would make minimal noise, you wouldn't even have to be going all that fast, because they'd have no warning you were coming.  This would vastly simplify the ballistics involved.  Your target is visible to you, and is much "bigger", since it's a lot closer.  Also, do remember that we're not necessarily talking about a "ballistic" weapon.  There's a wizard on the airplane: this could still be a guided bomb. (Though not sure you'd have much TIME for guidance, flying at, say, 100 feet above the ground...)

Now, I admit this is a different KIND of bombing.  The kind you were describing is strategic bombing, whereas I'm describing Close Air Support for the troops... but I think they would be more likely to focus on that, anyway.

I didn't reference this tactic earlier because we were discussing reconnaissance, and recon at treetop level is useless, since you can't see very much.  For bombing runs, you only need to see one thing.

There is also something else to be considered:  Because these magical craft are not being governed by the principles of flight, a CloudRider would be more like an Apache helicopter than an F-18: it would be capable of hovering, and turning at very tight radii, even slipping sideways, possibly.

In fact, this is the one way in which it COULD perform reconnaissance.  Imagine one of these craft with a periscope setup.  You hide behind some trees, and use the periscope to look over them, to see the enemy position.  This wouldn't be super-useful, given that the enemy is usually camped out in trees, making seeing them from a distance very difficult, but it would be an option at times.

Eric Storm

Well, and like I said, a simple privacy field completely nullifies any attempt at imaging-style recon.  (Any recon, really)

I agree that being close to the shooters is always dangerous, but the danger in this case is heavily mitigated by the stealth factor: Because the vehicle makes no noise, it would be very hard to know it was there in order to shoot at it.  By the time you saw it, you might get off a shot, but it's not going to be an aimed shot.  Not to mention, by the time you saw it, you'd also have to be worrying about the bomb it likely just dropped...

So, yeah, it's not gonna be "safe", but this is war: nothing's safe.  It would be something I think could be used to make a serious difference in the war.

And now you all get to ask yourselves if my strong defense of this tactic means I used it in the chapters you haven't read yet.  I'm so mean. 

 

Eric Storm

Geeze if you people want to talk bombs, heres what ya do. Have David go to Earth, ghost on to a military base and steal a nuke. Then activate it and shove it through a travel gate to the Were capitol. End of war. But this isn't what Eric wanted. Plus would have ended story way to soon.

Using a WMD against a civilian population is immoral, and voids your right to exist as a nation.

Eric Storm

JBPayne:

I'd also like to point out that "stealing a nuke" is a useless thing to do, unless you also happen to steal the arming equipment... AND the guys who know the activation code.  You can't just press a button to set off a nuclear bomb.

Eric Storm

PS:  There is also the fact that there isn't a travel gate IN the were capital...

Ellesar my answer to that would be why when they have magical traps twice as effective? I am convinced though the answer will be a blending with earth tech and magic

Barbarian3165 wrote:

High detail digital cameras from companies like Cannon or Nikon would make way more sense, unless there is some reason they wouldn't work in Dugerra.

Great, so now, instead of teaching someone how to use a photo developer machine, we have to teach them to use a COMPUTER.  This is a non-trivial task.  And yes, they could conscript people to operate those computers for them, but that, too, is a non-trivial task.  Now you have to find someone to do the job that those conscripts were doing.  AND you have to find people you can conscript who will pass scrutiny for security clearances, since image analysis is always one of the most-highly classified parts of intelligence gathering...

As to the anti-divination or anti-identification spells.  If I remember correctly, they never made the people invisible to the device but merely made them unidentifiable as an individual.  You should, most likely, still be able to tell a species, unless they are in human form.

And see, this is where one of the repeating problems comes in.  Not just with you, but with everyone who discusses this stuff.  You assume that the form of a spell you've seen in the story is the ONLY form it can take.  Anti-divination spells and anti-identification spells are entire CLASSES of spells.  You've seen... one or two of them.  And the ones you've seen have been done at levels considered "competent", but not "masterful".  You SHOULD assume there are much stronger versions of virtually every spell you've seen done.  The anti-identification spell used in book 4 obscured the identity of a single person, yes.  A stronger version of that spell should be able to obscure an entire area.  (But, as you'll see later in this message, this is a moot point, anyway...)

But, identification of specific individuals in this case isn't necessary.  Location and numbers is what you want to know... so, anti-identification spells shouldn't matter.

And with one sentence, you nullified the entire discussion, altogether.  For location and number, you do not need a visual record at all.  You can simply fly over and estimate.  Position could be grabbed through use of the GPS (Garibaldi Positioning System).  The only purpose of a visual record is image analysis for details.  Therefore, if you have a spell that could obscure the details, it eliminates the usefulness of image analysis.

If there were spells that could completely defeat the Rhimor recorder, wouldn't the council of wizards work to defeat those?

No.  The only laws that the Rimohrs enforce for the Council of Wizards are not laws that require investigation.  It's pretty damned obvious, for instance, that the Vrudenans started a war.  That's not something you have to "investigate".  You sure as hell don't need a recorder to figure it out.

The Council of Wizards does not impose some kind of international law on citizenry.  The rules they enforce are directed at nations.  The Rimohr office was not formed to enforce CoW law.  It was formed to prevent wizards from evading the laws of nations through the simple expedient of moving through a travel gate or crossing a line on a map.

As to privacy fields.  So far, every description I've read in the story has them giving off some low level light as well as reflecting any nearby light sources.  Privacy fields on a battlefield would be highly problematic because of this.

You have seen exactly ONE privacy field spell: Apraka sajona.  So, you assume that every privacy field spell looks like that?  This is a continuation of the issue above:  You make the assumption that the only spells in existence are the ones I've written down.  That's ludicrous.

However, if you like, I can side-step even this, with magical techniques already evidenced in the story.

Why not just use an illusion spell?  You could completely obscure even the existence of the base by simply making it all look like trees.  Given that they caught David and Vivian in a solid-illusion trap, we know that the weres have people good enough to pull off these kinds of illusions.  An illusion is going to completely defeat something based on pure light gathering (ie, a camera).  A good illusion will even fool most wizards.

Before you ask, why wouldn't they be hiding them this way already?  The answer is simple: they don't need to, and doing so uses up energy.  But if the enemy could suddenly see you from miles and miles away?  The energy expenditure would immediately become worth it.

And this pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin of any sort of reconnaissance effort by air.  As I have said repeatedly, it would work for only as long as it took the enemy to figure out you were doing it.

Eric Storm

Yeah, the recon thing wasn't really aimed at you, Chief.  You and I were discussing the bombing stuff.  Barbarian was still talking about the recon stuff.

Eric Storm

Chief:

I'll take the kudos, but not for my research.  I actually thought that maneuver up on my own.  On the other hand, there was a period of time where I was VERY into airplanes and helicopters, so thinking about flight maneuvers comes easy to me.  (If I had eyes, I'd have been a pilot... probably would have shot for an AH-64 pilot in the army...  That whole "landing on a bucking postage stamp" thing makes me nervous... )  I was "into" it enough that, though I can no longer remember the acronym, I know what a NATOPS manual is.    (Something like Naval Training and Operations?  I forget...)

As to why use bombs over just aerial wand-waving:  Two reasons.  First, magic does eventually run out... or, more precisely, the wizard becomes fatigued and is no longer capable of controlling it.  So they could only do that for just so long.  Second... speed.  To continuously fire at the ground, you'd have to loiter.  With a bomb, you drop it and just keep going.  A loitering aircraft is easier to shoot down.

Can you see the dogfights in your head like I can?  I see a version of the scenes from Independence Day, with wizard blasts streaking left and right, up and down...  Aircraft banking wildly, stopping in mid-air and darting off in a whole new direction...  pew pew pew!!!! 

I think I might need sleep... 

Eric Storm

Yes Eric I can see the dogfights. early in my career if you took the time to qualify for an ejection seat and would sign a waiver you could hitch rides with willing pilots on certain exercises and missions. I have been back seat on weapon runs and escape and evade exercises on two different aircraft. F-4 Phantom and TA-4 Skyhawk . They will not allow this anymore because unless you are drawing flight pay they feel the liability is too rough. pew pew indeed