The Pub Discussion Board

Is Gtharsis even concerned about their travel gates?  If all of Dugerra assumes that the werewolves won't go into earth for any reason, then it would be a good tactic.  It may only work once and the force would know it is on basically a suicide mission.  But a couple thousand werewolves sacrificed in this manner could force Calamandia to split it's forces.  They would now have to actively patrol their southern border until Gtharsis agreed to actively shut and monitor it's travel gate(s).  As long as the werewolf force in the south stayed on the move, it might be kind of hard for them to be found.  But they could wreck havoc across the southland raising the panic and fear level inside Calamandia.  Heck they could even play nice in Gtharsis and actually pay to write those glide-busses north to a point near but out of sight of the Calamandian border.  If they have to, the werewolves fight their way across the border... But again if it isn't expected why would they really have to?  Wipe out the Calamandian border crossing but leave the Gtharsis station alone.  After all they would want someone from Gtharsis to call Calamandia.  If the werewolf force has strong anti divination magic applied to them, then tracking them might be harder, especially if they didn't use the roads all that often.  Also, once the fear sets in of an attack from the south, it forces Calamandia to split it's forces until Gtharsis and possibly all nations south have their gates secured.

You've also mentioned in your story, historical naval invasions at least at or near Mt. Woodward.  Why not another one heading further south.  Maybe land just north of Florida, not on the Florida peninsula anyway.  A force there marching around causing havoc would also be a pain to Calamandia and further draw down on it's forces.

I'm not sure I'd call a damn break a WMD.  They do happen in real life after all.  As to the terrain allowing this, I'm not sure.  I am reasonably sure there are some tributaries feeding some of the larger rivers in the North Eastern part of the U.S.  It wouldn't even have to be a major tributary if they were willing to wait.  Heck, with a force thee times the size of the Calamandian force, why would they use it right away.

added thought:  If the force(s) in the south, while unimpeded, turned the villages they attacked instead of killing them that might make an even bigger problem for the Calamandian army and government.  Throw in a little intimidation like, "your now one of us, they will kill you.  Either fight with us or die."  You could even selectively target who get's turned and who is left alive.  Turn the young men and tell them that if they don't serve them their parents will be executed and their sisters will be used as breeding slaves.

Last edited by Barbarian3165 (2018-07-02 19:59:19)

Barbarian3165 wrote:

Is Gtharsis even concerned about their travel gates?  If all of Dugerra assumes that the werewolves won't go into earth for any reason, then it would be a good tactic.  It may only work once and the force would know it is on basically a suicide mission.  But a couple thousand werewolves sacrificed in this manner could force Calamandia to split it's forces.  They would now have to actively patrol their southern border until Gtharsis agreed to actively shut and monitor it's travel gate(s).  As long as the werewolf force in the south stayed on the move, it might be kind of hard for them to be found.  But they could wreck havoc across the southland raising the panic and fear level inside Calamandia.  Heck they could even play nice in Gtharsis and actually pay to write those glide-busses north to a point near but out of sight of the Calamandian border.  If they have to, the werewolves fight their way across the border... But again if it isn't expected why would they really have to?  Wipe out the Calamandian border crossing but leave the Gtharsis station alone.  After all they would want someone from Gtharsis to call Calamandia.  If the werewolf force has strong anti divination magic applied to them, then tracking them might be harder, especially if they didn't use the roads all that often.  Also, once the fear sets in of an attack from the south, it forces Calamandia to split it's forces until Gtharsis and possibly all nations south have their gates secured.

Hmm.  Both of your immediate-northern neighbors are at war with an aggressor nation.  That aggressor nation's southernmost border is only 320 miles from your own border.  Do you heighten your security level?

Only if you have a brain.  Instability in the region is always a reason to increase security.  Just because it isn't expected does not mean it isn't possible.  Keep in mind that Gtharsis and Callamandia are allies.  Gtharsis has reason to watch Callamandia's back: if the weres beat the humans, how likely is it that the gnomes are going to stop them?  It is in Gtharsis' best interest to, at the very least, keep their travel gates closely monitored.  And, chances are, a Callamandian security agent would probably also be watching the travel gate(s) at all times, as well.

You've also mentioned in your story, historical naval invasions at least at or near Mt. Woodward.  Why not another one heading further south.  Maybe land just north of Florida, not on the Florida peninsula anyway.  A force there marching around causing havoc would also be a pain to Calamandia and further draw down on it's forces.

While this is possible, don't you think that, since it IS a historically known tactic, that Callamandia would have prepared for it?  A simple system of civilian lookouts stationed along the coast at one-mile increments would be sufficient to note any incoming threat.  The weres would be able to do damage for a little while, but would be contained and destroyed fairly quickly.  (Why destroyed?  No logistical chain.)

I'm not sure I'd call a damn [sic] break a WMD.  They do happen in real life after all.

Asteroids hit planets in real life, too.  Does that mean that one race using a mass driver against another race's planet, bombarding it with asteroids, is not using a weapon of mass destruction?  WMDs are nothing more than weapons that kill a very large number of people with a single deployment.  Killing thousands of civilians by destroying a dam would, by definition, be a weapon of mass destruction.

added thought:  If the force(s) in the south, while unimpeded, turned the villages they attacked instead of killing them that might make an even bigger problem for the Calamandian army and government.  Throw in a little intimidation like, "your now one of us, they will kill you.  Either fight with us or die."  You could even selectively target who get's turned and who is left alive.  Turn the young men and tell them that if they don't serve them their parents will be executed and their sisters will be used as breeding slaves.

So... let's think this through.

First, you turn a young adult male.  Say, 21 years old or so.  Full of testosterone already, you have now just made him stronger, faster, and even more aggressive than he already was, by making him a werewolf.

Next, you tell this aggressive, testosterone-filled youth that if he doesn't do what you tell him, you're going to destroy his family.

Then you hand him a weapon, and expect him to aim it in an appropriate direction.

You would never, not ever, not even for one minute, be able to turn your back on these "soldiers".  Their primary thought would be how to fuck you over in the worst possible way.  Their goal would be to get your sorry ass killed in battle.  If he could kill you himself during a battle without getting caught, he would.  And you're going to do this to not just one person, but dozens?  Hundreds?  Your enemy will thank you wholeheartedly for building a self-destruct device into the middle of your own army.

Also, there are already werewolves living in Callamandia.  They are Callamandian citizens.  No one is going to buy the notion that being turned is a death sentence.

The only way in which this tactic would work is to use some kind of brainwashing technique.  And I'm thinking that using mind control on enemy noncombatants to turn them into allied soldiers just might be against international wizarding treaty...

Eric Storm

Eric Storm wrote:

No, travel gates are NOT man-made.  Did it ever occur to you that, within the Dugerra universe, the reason those cities are there is because of the travel gate, and not the other way around?

I'd also like to point out that the travel gate in Eureka, IL is in the middle of an empty field outside of town.  Yes, inside a shed... you would want to protect it visually somehow.

No, it is not possible to add travel gates at all.  They are fixed points of magical connection between the two worlds.

Eric Storm

When this was posted I thought of the secret portals found in Davids attic (WAY6 Jan) As I recall they were not really movable and were somewhat dangerous which is why they had been classified My gut says they are not usable here but cannot think why

In response to your request for unorthodox or unusual tactics for the Vrudenans to use against the humans:

Okay, so no new, CREATED travel gates. However, could you work a newly discovered travel gate into the war that the Weres can take advantage of? I'm thinking of the following scenario: While wolves can climb trees, it is not something they do well. It would stand to reason that Weres would avoid the practice much like they avoid bodies of water. However, given the preparations for the Callamandian war, they train in all things human. Being able to swim and climb trees is SOP for soldiers in the Vrudenian military. Let's say during said training, they use an old tree to climb and discover a previously unknown travel gate. The reason it has been undiscovered is that 1) like the portals in David's attic, the tree portrals are off the ground thus less likely to be known and 2) they are located in Were country in an area popluated by those less inclined to be up in trees.

Can you do anything with that, Eric?

Eric Storm wrote:

exactly what good would another travel gate within Vrudena do for the Vrudenan army?  They've already got four of them on their own soil.

I keep thinking back to the concept of deception and how the Weres cause their magic to get places they aren't supposed to be in Callamandia. Think back to WW2 and how spies would use fake papers, disguises, information and trickery to get into enemy territory. If the normal routes to Callamandia are guarded/unavailable, any new route would benefit the effort infiltrate. My thinking - the newly discovered travel gate is available from Vrudena to somewhere in the US. Obviously, there is no restriction for travel within the US so the Vrudenan soldiers can move to a US to Callamandia travel gate and use deception to get into Callamandia. Perhaps they can do so a little at a time, amassing a sizable group to take strategic Callamandian targets. Since the Callamandian army wouldn't know (or even think it possible) they are there, they would be less likely to be prepared for an attack.

Trying to think outside of the box here.

Not a bad idea, StoryJunkie. In every war, there are traitors and spies. A Callamandian citizen who is loyal to Vrudena could transport any number of animals from the US to Callamandia. That is, unless there is a restriction or method of confirming they are normal, non-morphed animals, something you think they'd be on the lookout for, especiallly during a war. Another Callamandian citizen (in Callamandia) who is also loyal to Vrudena could place an order for pigs or cows so there is legit paperwork to bring animals form Earth into Callamandia.

Eric Storm wrote:

EVERYTHING passing through a travel gate in the middle of a war is going to be scanned.Eric Storm

Got it. I suppose I was thinking there had to be a way around that given the relative ease with which wizards get through travel gates. I don't recall reading there was anything like a TSA airport checkpoint, just an "invisible" wall to walk through and a few hellhounds to catch the misplaced humans. Who does the actual scanning and how are they detained?

Eric Storm wrote:

Sneaking into Callamandia is going to be child's play for a small unit.  Could you assemble a larger force this way?  Difficult, due to time constraints, but possible... and you wouldn't need any new travel gate to do it.  Nor would you have to depend on a third party to "look the other way" while you marched through their nation (Mirelia and Vrudena are also at war, so an invasion there is just part of the hostilities.)

StoryJunkie wrote:

Thinking about the idea of metamorphosis, some of the Vrudenan army could metamorph into like sized animals and travel behind the lines and follow the Army, wait until an attack, morph back in their hybrid form and attack.....it wouldn't have to be a fast morph either, change back 1/2 mile from the battle and then attack from the rear. You have already said that a similar sized change is easiest, if they become forest animals (of some unassuming type) and pass the Army for a rear attack, it would achieve at least a good surprise attack.

This is one of the best uses for metamorphosis I've seen recommended yet.  Thank you.

Large orders of animals would be immediately suspect - let's keep in mind that there are more kinds of weres than just wolves, and we have already SEEN wereoxen.  No, if they were going to pull this attack, they wouldn't even need any kind of special infiltration force.  Just take a portion of the invasion force, have them morph into deer, and just walk past the humans, keeping to the woods.  If the humans saw them, the weres could simply act like deer and move away, and the humans would find that entirely normal for deer.

Eric Storm

This is kind of what I was saying....suddenly having 15 or 20 enemy attack from the rear while engaged in a fight would be very surprising, and by only having 15 or 20 at a time would not be too difficult to slip around a force and morph back after the fight starts it is a much more viable means for surprise attack.

I remember what you wrote about the Vrudenans not knowing Earth and the small possibilities they would have trying to travel through the gates.

I wish I could come up with some more, but the way my brains has been failing me ever the last few years (CO2 build up is bad people) I have a hard time even remembering last week let alone try to think of devious ways to attack people lol


heee heeee yeah, I helped a little!!! every bit of praise I get...I'm gonna go buy me a treat lol

fathertyme:

Your view of werewolves is highly skewed, and ignores some rather important facts already in evidence.  Like the fact that the weres have been negotiating ahead of this war for well over a year.  Or the fact that werewolves were spotted prowling the forest north of Mt. Woodward well in advance of any sort of hostilities.  Or, hell, the simple fact that they've employed any strategy at all.

Werewolves are aggressive, yes, but they are not unthinking, nor are they completely barbaric, which you seem to believe them to be.

Werewolves have a basic two-stage approach to warfare.  The werewolves are patient, as wolves are patient.  They will wait for the appropriate time to make their attack.  However, once battle is engaged, the werewolves are highly aggressive, and do tend to lose sight of any formal plan.  They also fear showing weakness: running from a battle where the odds started out 100-to-1 in their favor would look like sheer cowardice to anyone not there at the battle.

Your notion that some of the werewolves would break ranks and attack early... this would get them summarily executed, so I'm pretty sure they could hold themselves in check.  One thing about werewolves is they don't allow insubordination.

Also, you need to go back to math class.  60,000 versus 20,000 is not 4 to 1 odds. 

Eric Storm

Also you say they do tend to lose sight of any formal plan.
Do you mean that they fight mostly as a group of individuals once the battle is started?  IE would complex troop formations  and mid battle changes in orders from the general wouldn't work for them? 

If so you should definitely use that for how they lose the war.  A well organised trained and led army that fights as a group will usually beat  much larger forces that use uncordinated mass Attack style stuff

(posted from the Item Information Page)

I for one get your message. further looking at your other writings (rons journey) it is obvious you have little to no respect for earth Generals.  You had asked for ideas and we were trying to give them to you. We used earth battles merely as examples, not because we cannot think of magical battles but because those tactical lessons are truth not just earth truth. Sun tsu wrote 2k years ago that a winning general knew himself and knew his enemy, Is this not still true? does it not apply to fighting with spears as well as aircraft? Why would it not also apply to magical battle. Of course the rules for magical battle are different but the truths remain and there is a wealth of information in studying historical war, you just pull out the tactics and apply the parameters of your and your enemys armys. Eric I am afraid this is a blind spot you have but let it go as I said your war your rules etc. I still enjoy your writings, biggest reason is because  you usually do a very credible job of building well thought out scenarios so I am still and will remain a fan

I haven't posted in awhile because of life and all that nonsense but my suggestion would be to look at the so called "Indian Wars" of 19th Century US. When the US started pushing Native Americans out, the natives were at a technological disadvantage. After they proceeded to get better weapons and equipment they were on more even footing. Yet they still used roughly the same tactics they always had. Strikes and raids were the order of the day for the natives because that is what they knew and that was what they were good at. In the end they ended up losing only because of how small a individual tribe was and the general unease of joining with other tribes.

By and large most wars have the same basic principles of strategy, but tactics are something that is hard to plan for if you don't know the situation or field of battle. Some people are better at raids and others at large scale battle. The situation is still the same if you don't know the situation and AoE.

For the Weres they seem like raiders and scorched earth types. The Callamandians seem more versatile and able to quickly adapt (similar to modern US military.) That being said a versatile military is usually not truly great at any one thing. With obvious expectations.

My suggestion for the Weres is large scale diversion and feints, While striking at key positions elsewhere. For large battles (if any) I suggest encirclement. If I were the Weres I would avoid large battles though and go for strikes and raids. Weres' ego doesn't seem like it would be able to ignore a taunt or obvious threat though. Which means the Callamandians might be able to draw them into a battle.

Sorry for the long post and probably useless one at that. I just had to get that out of my system. Feel free to tear it apart and tell me why. Hopefully I will be able to help you better then.

I wish you and yours well and hope the stress lets up.

Last edited by Archangel1962 (2018-07-12 16:31:11)