The Pub Discussion Board

Imagineer wrote:

and should it somehow miraculously gain any attention nevermind traction, it would do so at the expense of more important issues.

Name one issue more important than teaching kids to be a positive part of society rather than a negative one.  Name just one.  You can teach them Calculus when they get to college.  You cannot teach them these lessons in college if they're busy dealing drugs with their gang buddies.  You keep saying that doing this would be at the expense of "more important issues"... but you have yet to come up with a single issue that is even close to being as important as this issue is.  This issue is at the core of our decaying society.  Society is not falling apart because of television violence or sexual openness.  It is falling apart because we have stopped teaching kids how to interact with the people around them.  This used to be done by both school and family.... and lately BOTH have stopped doing it.  Family because the parents generally don't have time (and nowadays, weren't taught how themselves...), and school because... ?  Mainly I think it's because society's mores are changing, and what used to be the accepted position (Christian theocracy) doesn't hold anymore, but the Christians who are going out of power are clinging to their status with every ounce of energy they've got.

No... I think you're quite wrong on this one, Imagineer.  I don't think that you could mention a single school issue more important to the welfare of our society than this one.  Children and teens need to be educated about things that are really going to matter... and the fact is, you can teach people science at any time.  You can teach them history at any time.  You have a small window of about 5-10 years where you can really teach them how to interact with people.  After that, if they're already on the wrong path, you've completely lost the opportunity, and society is damaged further.  Just what do you see as being more important than stopping this downward spiral?  I think you're focused on "The school system is already fucked up... we can't make curriculum changes until we reform the entire system..."  I humbly submit that you make the changes you can get made, when you can get them made, and curriculum changes are the easiest changes to make.

Jefferson and BR:

I'm sorry that you guys had bad experiences in Home Ec.  My Home Ec class was fairly useful.  We did two sewing projects during the year.  We cooked at least once a week, and it was stuff that people in the region I lived in (Southeastern New Mexico) actually ate for meals...  We attempted to learn embroidery, which I thought was kind of pointless (because I can't do it... :S), and we did talk about other issues.  It could certainly have been better, but all in all, it was a pretty good class for me.  I hope more people had an experience like mine than had an experience like y'all's (yeah, so shoot me, I'm from the W. Texas area.  ), but I fear that your experiences may be in the majority these days.  It has become unfashionable to know how to take care of yourself.

*shrugs*  Things need fixing.  Unfortunately, a lot of people in power seem to think "fix" means "revert to a neurotic set of Christian standards".  Until we can get to the point where society realizes that there is little virtue in ignorance, we will continue to have to fight.  Unlike Imagineer, I don't believe that we shouldn't try just because something will be difficult... and no, the group of Christians he's talking about don't comprise NEARLY half the country.  There are only about 50 million born-again Christians in the US.  There are another group of "nominally Christian because that's how I was raised" people that are much easier to un-indoctrinate.

Net Wolf

PS: The "Quote" link is there for a reason...

see the problem is that every school is different just like every teacher teaches differently and every student learns differently...because what is important to one doesn't mean shit to another...


...so you guy saying I'm right ...NO I'm right...NO I'm right...hell Don't you see There can't be ONE single correct way because if it works somewhere  somewhere else is going to try to fuck it up...either on purpose of on accident

...teachers will say..I'm not doing it

...School boards will say we won't allow that in our system...

...Principals will say hell no not here...

...Students will say" Shit I already know what I need"

...And parents will scream Bloody Murder because you want their kids to know what they had to find out 
            the "hard way"
...Not to mention Politicians who will try to get rid of it because their state wouldn't want that kind of thing...

...And the leading church officials in every area bitching about leading "our children" to hell...

...Remember people individually are pretty smart but when they gather in a group that herd mentallity takes over and they simply walk around going " MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"...

...Thats why it won't work...UNLESS you start from scratch and keep only the bear bones of our society...And that would take more than sitting here bitching at the screen...

Imagineer:

You claim that I'm misinterpreting you, but you clearly never bothered to understand what I was saying, because I never said that a class devoted solely to sex ed was a good idea.  I said a class devoted to human relationships was a good idea.  Perhaps to you the two are equivalent, but they aren't to me.

Net Wolf

No. I will name issues that are more important than a sex education class, because that is the issue at hand. Reading. Writing. Arithmetic. The basics of history. I thought these were obvious. Maybe you've taken them for granted. You keep preaching as if kids get no social skills simply by GOING to school and PARTICIPATING in the process. Socialization happens. Perhaps that wasn't enough for you... {shrug}

Why do you seem under the impression that any sex ed or human relations course would be the ONLY thing we would teach. In school, I learned math, history, science, a little German, algebra, some psychology and a dozen other topics. Why is adding one, or even two more courses to a school curriculum so hard to swallow for you? Remember, we have twelve years to pump this stuff into kids. Would it cost a little money? Yes! Do we have it to spend? If we cancelled other really unncessary things, such as "Film Study" class or, as Net Wolf put forth, one or two extra-curricular sports activities, the school would have the money to teach this class.

As for teaching other things, it's a different topic but we're not even teaching those other topics real well. Right now, most science classes can't discuss creationism or Darwinism. They should discuss both and debate it.

We're teaching our kids about the 'Midnight ride of Paul Revere!' Hate to tell you this, but IT'S A LIE! Paul Revere's horse fell and broke it's leg an hour in to his ride. His ride was cut short. Yet our teachers are STILL teaching it!

I disagree. Participation in the process of government begins early. History is important to perspective and identity. And I'm not saying kids can't be educated about "things that are really going to matter" -- or that they aren't. A lot of things ought to be taught, and by political necessity in our society some of them remain the province of parenthood. The public school system as we know it or as we could realistically build it can't fix bad parenting -- and one person's bad parenting is another person's responsible guidance.

Sounds to me like you don't think schools are the place to teach kids about sex or socialization at all. You want to go back to  Reading, writing and arithematic and that's about it. You've said over and over again that kids get socialized just by being at school. You're right. But are they doing it right? If so, why are so many kids dropping out? Why are they on drugs? Why are we hearing about suicide pacts between thirteen year olds? Why are so many young girls getting pregnant? Why are we seeing more and more school shootings? These are the kinds of things, that if we start early enough in a childs life, we can give them the information they need in order to avoid these traps, these pitfalls. That's why Net and I are after. Yes, it's still going to happen. But if we can stop just a couple hundred kids from falling into these traps, why shouldn't we? Parents are teaching this stuff. They're either too busy, don't know it themselves, are too embarrassed or just plain out and out don't give a damn.

Don't look now, but I think the sky is falling. Is society falling apart? I don't think so. There are always problems. And... do you know what we have or haven't stopped teaching kids?

What we've stopped teaching kids is values. We've stopped teaching them pride, in themselves, in their families, in giving their word, in their schools. We've stopped building character. We're not teaching kids to think anymore, we're teaching them what to think! We are literally, indoctrinating them.

Political correctness is a really odd idea in a country born of the idea of free thinking, free speech, free religion and democracy.

That's a great attitude, and yet it's a giant hurdle -- one that our society will not jump for sex. A life skills course IS a great idea. It might even gain traction among conservative parents -- as long as the material remains neutered. And while that obviates the point you started with, I think we can agree it would be progress.

If we teach kids to be open to different things, if we teach them how to ask questions and explore, if we teach them how to learn, perhaps more of them will shed the prejudices of the past and build a better future. I'm pretty sure that's how we've gotten this far -- we weren't just taught, we learned.

We've been 'neutering' what we're allowed to teach for fifty years. Everything gets watered down. Everything has to be "politically correct." I bet they won't even show "Gone with the wind" in high schools anymore because the N-word is used in it. For the time period of the movie, it was appropriate but who cares about that. We don't want our kids exposed to that. Being safe, being politically correct, neutering things is what a lot of what got us into this mess with the public schools.

I can find it. 

dv8n:

Then go read them and stop interrupting the adults.

Net Wolf

Imagineer wrote:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. But man, would I sure love to be proved wrong.

At least I got that much out of you.

You're probably right... for the moment. Right now, trying to teach a real sex ed class in  the public schools is pretty much a waste of time because of those "puritanical/ Victorian/ Dark Age" beliefs  that were mentioned early on in this conversation. Makes you wonder how they've stuck around so long?

I stated earlier, and I'll say it again here, to get real reforms in the public school system is going to take either a massive effort from those who can see the need and have an idea of how to fix it or an event that will be so devastating that everyone will be forced to see the problem.

If it's the first, things might change for the better. If it's the second, then the government(s) will end up making sweeping changes, without any thought to the future or to the consequences and we'll just end up in another freaking mess. Isn't democracy wonderful?

Last edited by Jefferson (2007-01-07 05:53:34)

The way i see it the whole structure of the school system is flawed
I think after you get the basics down math, english, science, and history your edication should be geared towards your strenths and interets not keep forceing students to learn information they will never use.

I mean dose anyone here acctually use calculus or trig (excluding any scientists or mathmatitions int he room i mean)

I have a degree from and art school but in my entire education I have only had 1 Drawing class (in colage and i wish i could have taken a second one) yet It was know I was interested in art since i was 7 and I was on an IEP at that time

IEP = Indiviual Education Plan done only for students dubbed special ed (that goes for gifted or LD kids)

Last edited by Neitherspace (2007-01-07 20:26:41)

*sighs again*  You rail against the current system, screaming how wrong it is, yet any time anyone presents an alternative, you deride it.

In fact, the system Neitherspace is talking about is precisely the system used in Japan... only there, the course of study is enforced by the system, rather than allowing the student to decide.  I dare say that the Japanese are not idiots.

He is right in pointing out that a car mechanic has no real use for a history class.  YOU will counter with "He needs to be a well-rounded person", and I will tell you that he won't remember a damned thing from that class if he has no interest.  "Well rounded" is another term for mediocre at everything, good at nothing.  The only people who really need to be "well rounded" are the leaders of society, ie, those who are going to go to college.

On the other hand, I am a 3-d artist, and I use Trig constantly in defining the objects I create in 3d space.  Does an artist need history class?  Probably not.  Do they need chemistry or physics?  Probably not... but it depends on their chosen medium for art.  Do I, as a 3-d artist, need to understand chemistry?  Thankfully no, because I don't.  Do I need to know physics?  Yes, if I want things to look right. 

No matter what your chosen career, you will need to be able to communicate.  That requires a course in English grammar and spelling (hence obviating your snide little comment above).  You will need basic math skills to perform daily tasks.  The fact is that the school system is geared toward sending every last student to college.  This is an unrealistic and frankly idiotic concept.  I don't know what the percentage of students is that actually wants to go to college out of high school... but the system is basically ignoring the needs of the rest of them.

I agree with Neitherspace:  A modified version of the old apprenticeship system makes far more sense than what we're doing now.  I'm not talking about putting kids to work laboring full-time for some guy who gets free workers out of it, but I am talking about allowing the kids to learn about their preferred career choices, and yes, cooperating with the community to let them get exposed to those career choices.

Now, I'm already aware of what you're going to say, Imagineer, that this would educate our students even less, that it would cost more, that it would unfairly advantage kids in geographic areas with more options, and that the community would never go for it.  To the first, I say it would educate them more, because they would actually remember what they were taught, and would be more interested in attending class.  To the second, I say that anything you do to reform the school system is going to cost more, so in order to make it better, more spending is an absolute requirement. 

The only problem I see is the third issue, and I'm not entirely sure how to rectify that one.  But then, the system has never treated all students fairly, so I don't see any reason that it has to do so after reform.  The fact is that some people will always get advantages given to them by chance.

And to the last, I say that you have no idea what communities will and won't go for until you TRY.  And the message you are sending, whether you intend to be or not is, "None of this stuff has a chance, so don't bother trying to change the system, unless it's a little bitty insignificant change that won't matter a damn."  To that, I say, if you never try to make major changes, then major changes will never get made.  Your professed concept of "Try to make it so that future generations can make the changes" only guarantees that the changes will never get made.  Change only happens when people say, "This needs to happen NOW."  It may TAKE generations, but unless people continually and constantly pressure to get the desired reform, it will never happen.

Net Wolf

I didn't "ascribe your name" to anything.  I merely anticipated what your objections would be.  If those are not what your objections would be, then state your objections.  For crying out loud, be a grown-up about it.  You have given every impression that, while you hate the current system, you don't think that trying to make any major change to it is worthwhile. Note that I did not say that you SAID THAT.  I said that the impression you are getting across is that.  It is the message you're sending, not necessarily the words you're saying.  If that is not the message you intend to send, then perhaps you should clarify your position.  In fact, all I've heard from you is "No, that won't work."

So, in your opinion, what WILL work?  You have yet to put forth a positive plan for school system reform.  Any idiot can be against everything.  If you don't stand FOR something, what use are you?

Net Wolf

PS: Before you get all offended AGAIN, I did not just call you an idiot.  I stated that it doesn't take a genius to be against every new idea put forth.

Actually, I read all of your comments.  It is not my fault if you did not make your point clearly.  I gave you an opportunity, just now, to state your plan for reform, in a single post, clearly and concisely, and you refused to do it.  You are the one who has picked small pieces of other people's ideas and said, "Yes, this might work," but mostly, you've said, "No, that has no chance at being implemented, so forget it."

If you don't like our plans for reform, either state your own, or admit you don't actually have a plan for major education reform.  Or are you not willing to hold your plan up to the ridicule you've given other plans?

Net Wolf

Net Wolf wrote:

dv8n:

Then go read them and stop interrupting the adults.

Net Wolf

cute I like that answer

hey I think I know what you guys will all agree on...a mandatory Sociology class that increases in level of learning per grade..and in the class they teach basic sex etiquette and partner fullfilment and interaction...

Actually, Jefferson, what you did was just fine.  It is, however, clear to me that Imagineer was missing something when he jumped in, and that was that the basic premise being discussed was constantly changing, morphing, and evolving.  He chose to assume that everyone in the discussion was continuing to talk about the extremely limited item that he had commented on, despite every evidence to the contrary.  MY mistake was assuming that he was paying enough attention to understand that we had moved beyond a "sex education only" class.  Clearly, he did not understand that.

As to "hard feelings", Imagineer and I have never seen eye-to-eye, so no hard feelings were caused... merely re-emphasized.

I don't think that you should hesitate to bring up issues, just because one person felt it necessary to ridicule everyone's desire for a better system.  By all means, if you want to post something else, go for it.

Net Wolf