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#1 2009-10-12 20:00:45

LAoW
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Registered: 2006-12-01
Posts: 450

This is amazingly pathetic...

This is what is happening with our schools. It's completely sad.





http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/educa … terstitial


I don't have to worry about revenge because Karma is a bigger bitch than I will ever have to be.

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#2 2009-10-12 21:09:16

Veritas
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From: Portugal
Registered: 2006-12-09
Posts: 136
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

The educational system is totally screwed up.

- Students are treated either as criminals, not worthy of time or effort, or as overprotected little children, unable to face the harsh realities of life.

- When a student has a bad grade, the parents blame the teacher instead of the student.

- If the grade averages are low, instead of stepping up classes and teaching, they lower standards.

- Mere participation is celebrated on par of winning - killing the competitive drive.

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#3 2009-10-12 21:24:59

Storymaster69
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From: Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2006-11-07
Posts: 329

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

LAoW wrote:

This is what is happening with our schools. It's completely sad.

I have to agree.  While I can understand school districts not wanting to have repeats of Columbine and such; I feel they are actually not only doing a disservice to the students who fail afoul of such rules, but they are also showing a total lack of faith in their own school administrators.  That they would just assume if officials were given discretionary powers, that it would be abused in a discriminatory manner, is just wrong.

I think it would be far better to deal with the potential school official that *might* abuse the system, rather than tying the hands of those that are honestly trying to nurture and educate the next generation.


Sex isn't the answer.
Sex is the question.
Yes is the answer.

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#4 2009-10-13 00:40:40

Jefferson
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From: East Coast, USA
Registered: 2006-12-03
Posts: 449

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

It's political correctness gone haywire.

They feel judges aren't capable of sentencing someone properly so they lay down rules about how to sentence. Since a law or rule can't possibly account for variations, they standardize it. This is how we get mandatory sentencing and hate crime legislation.

Afraid that one student will get better and/or different treatment than another, the school systems standardize rules. They do so to stop a black student from being treated worse than a white student or to stop a girl from being treated differently than a boy or to stop a Muslim child from being treated differently than a Christian. They think they're doing good. They think it's the best way but again, you can account for variations, for changes in circumstance so they lay down one rule and apply it to everyone equally.

We don't want guns in the schools so NO WEAPONS are allowed in school. As we all know, almost anything can be used as a weapon. THIS is what we get. Six year old boys suspended for carrying a Boy Scout issue Spork to school.

We don't want drugs in the schools but we can't separate cocaine and marijuana from prescription drugs and we can't separate prescription drugs from over-the-counter pain medicines so we have fifteen year old girls being thrown out of school for bringing Midol to help with menstrual cramps. 

One rule fits all. Everyone's equals. Everyone's the same. Welcome to the politically correct United States of America.

Last edited by Jefferson (2009-10-13 00:42:26)

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#5 2009-10-13 03:42:41

Eric Storm
Pub Owner
From: New Port Richey, FL
Registered: 2006-09-12
Posts: 5745
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Well, you know, there is a European Socialist in the White House....  3dsmile

Eric


Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
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#6 2009-10-13 09:10:54

Nadez
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From: Utah
Registered: 2009-06-06
Posts: 201
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Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

This is the most STUPID thing I have EVER heard, how could they do something like this? oh well I shouldn't be surprised I had my own run ins with school officials for things that shouldn't have been a big deal

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#7 2009-10-13 20:31:58

LAoW
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Registered: 2006-12-01
Posts: 450

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

You know, some of the most painful experiences I had in school was stabbing myself with a pencil and with a metal ruler. Are they going to take those away now and tell us no more writing utensils and no more rulers? Cause if so, I'd love to see them produce laptops for every kid in school, keep them running, and lock them down on the desks. 3droll It's become rather hard for kids to go to school, just based on the way they were treated. By the staff! One time, I was heading to our home room. I had to walk from the band room to there and it's a long walk. The rule had been set that if we weren't in the class room when that bell rang, we would get detention. When I got to the door, I held it open so that Coach Ray could push his stupid cart into the room. The bell rang, as I was standing outside, holding the door for him. He STILL gave me detention, saying I should have been there before him and gone straight in. I even asked him to his face if I should have pushed him out of the way to get into class. Pathetic. If I ever had kids, I'd home school them.


I don't have to worry about revenge because Karma is a bigger bitch than I will ever have to be.

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#8 2009-10-14 08:07:25

Nadez
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From: Utah
Registered: 2009-06-06
Posts: 201
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Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

You have got to be joking?! you see now why do something like that? its as if they (the System I,ll call it) just want to keep EVERYONE down, how is anyone supposed to learn with all this crap going on, I wonder if all the classmates are wondering now if there going to be in trouble for doing simple things because this little kid was! sure it has a knife on it but stabbing someone with a pencil or HELL a pair of safety scissors can be JUST as lethal, and as a funny part  of my post i,ll say this, If anyone seen Chronicles of Riddick they know EVEN a tea cup is deadly

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#9 2009-10-14 15:34:23

nightsecho
Wasted
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 168

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

i had alot of problems in 7th grade because of my weight
the vice principal trying to help told me and my mother about a kid who was over weight and had man boobs the school suggested that he have surgury to have them removed instead of dieting the kid actually did have the surgury and the vp suggested i have surgury to fix my weight

i'm still fat (272) 3dsmile


looking at you with wide eyes from the darkness

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#10 2009-10-16 06:15:45

lordalpha
Wasted
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 139

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Ill write up a quick one here(I hope)

My dear fiancee is a K-5 teacher. She had a sugar hyped kid in her class about a year or so ago. After he had almost totaly destroyed the classroom, another teacher(his home room teacher) finally came in, and she was able to get someone to watch the class while she walked him to the office. However, since he would not calm down, and would not stop throwing things...like chairs, desks and the like, she did something she wasn't supposed to, she put her hands on the kids shoulders, and told him he had to calm down, or he would be in worse trouble. After a few moments, she removed her hands from his shoulders, and the Vice Principal came in, to take him to the office.

She was mildly scolded, but the administration understood that there was no other option.
Ok, fast forward 2 days, when the child is let back on school grounds. The kid has his VERY irate mother with him, who DEMANDS to see the teacher that tried to choke her son. My fiancee had an entire class of witnesses, another teacher that watched the event, and the Vice Principal who also noticed no misconduct. After almost 2 months of hate mail from the parents, constant semi-reassurances from the administration, and as much support as I could give her, It was decided that the child was to be expelled, for attempting to get a teacher fired. The kid, once he was faced with the realization that he was now screwed, since there was NO secondary school to go to, and he had NO way to go to a private school, admitted that he scratched his own neck, to try and get her fired, because she was "mean".

It ticks me off some times, how pigheaded some parents are about their kids(in contrast to the above posts)
*I was going to go deeper into this story, and some of the ramifications of it, but after typing for a bit, I realized it realy had no point to the above posts, other then it being school related, and while the above ramblings share that, its MUCH shorter, so I shall forgive myself 3dsmile *

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#11 2009-10-16 21:03:17

LAoW
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Registered: 2006-12-01
Posts: 450

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Lordalpha, I totally understand where you're coming from. Some kids are out there who just get it into their heads to get back at the teachers who are just trying to help. I understand that. But in my case, I was always a quiet kid who did my work and would rather have been left alone. I was the shy one. I was the quiet one. It took one act of a teacher being mean to me to make me break. I couldn't believe it was happening to me!

I hope your fiancee got everything straightened out. I would never want to be a teacher, especially in today's society, with crap like all this going on.


I don't have to worry about revenge because Karma is a bigger bitch than I will ever have to be.

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#12 2009-10-16 21:54:53

lordalpha
Wasted
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 139

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Actually, I was much like that myself LAoW. I was quiet, shy, bookworm, and the teachers pet. I understand alot of the problems that go on in schools. I can understand that the kids are not getting a decent education. I understand that teachers are being FORCED to teach in a way that goes against every thing they are taught. Kids cant get a decent education, teachers cant teach what the kids need to know. This is mostly because the administration, going up and up and up are being forced to get the statistics higher, higher passing rate, higher grades, higher everything. And yet, we are producing neurotic, sociopathic children, who are being fed nothing but coddles, increasingly easier test, less responsibility for their own actions, and a diet of media advertisements. At the very same time, these same kids are getting harsher penalties for any violation of the rules, they are slapped down by administration for needed things.

I was a child, who needed to take medication on a regular basis at school. I was required to have a teacher, in the middle of class, to escort me to the nurses office. The nurse, who had to be certified in safety procedures by local law, had to take a key from one lock box, to open another lock box, and then get the medication out of a locked file cabinet.  This had to happen 3 times a day. They ended up having to hire two extra teachers who's job was JUST to escort kids to get their meds.

Our children are being fed coddles and the promise of an easy life in one hand, and a strict, surveillance state on the other, where no matter what grade you get, how much you goof off, and what you do, you can pass through school, but if you take a midol out, your kicked out of the same school....BUT never fear, we have special schools just for you, and kids like you, where we send teachers who messed up, or were caught doing something wrong, or who havent done ANYTHING at all except tell us what we are doing wrong, and how to fix it for half the budget.

(Ill stop here, this is one of those issued I could write a short book on and probably still not be finished with 3dsmile )

But to actually answer your question LAoW, she is fine. She had another incident a few months after that, with a child of a fundamentalist Islamic family(no racism intended here, its how they described themselves, and I bear no ill will toward them) who didn't want their children exposed to music, since it was against their particular beliefs, and even worse, a christian woman was teaching that to their son. Long story short, it caused her more stress then I have ever seen in her, and that is it. The child was told to go elsewhere for that period, and the family took their kids to a private school the following semester.

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#13 2009-10-17 01:05:17

Eric Storm
Pub Owner
From: New Port Richey, FL
Registered: 2006-09-12
Posts: 5745
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

As they should have done in the first place.  If you believe something like that, then it is YOUR responsibility to keep your child out of that atmosphere.  It is not the school's responsibility to deny it to everyone else so you don't get offended.

Eric Storm


Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
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#14 2009-10-22 05:31:36

Nadez
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From: Utah
Registered: 2009-06-06
Posts: 201
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

So most of us agree the system IS fucked up, but then we have to think if we all agree that its fucked up Do we know a better way that it CAN be done? Can anyone here come up with a valid way to raise our kids, yet keep them safe, AND not piss someone off? and that about your Fiance barely touching the kid is so ..annoying as hell its like EVERYTHING is being blown out of proportion everywhere, in the olden days.. (Hell only 15 years ago in some cases) Kids could go out in the yard and beat the shit out of each other and that was that, these days someone brings a gun to school and mows people down! What is the solution? we get pissed off at everything going on but do we have something that would work? I for one do not, im interested if any of you do.

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#15 2009-10-22 06:40:22

Jefferson
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From: East Coast, USA
Registered: 2006-12-03
Posts: 449

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Nadez, there are a lot of things that could be done to improve the school system. Eric and I had a long discussion about it on this very board not long after the site went active. Between the two of us we came up with a number of good ideas of how to reform the system to make it work better.

While getting the money to finance these changes would take some work, we both agreed that wouldn't be the REALLY hard part. The hard part would be getting people to allow it. There are a lot of people very heavily invested in the school system being left JUST the way it is.

The Teacher's unions are the main reason school vouchers have never happened across the country. They're worried that they will lose money as more and more kids flee from the public schools to private or parochial schools. Private and Parochial school teachers are NOT necessarily unionized. So the unions can't and won't support the idea and since the teachers have a powerful lobby, with lots of powerful congressmen in their pockets, Obama can send his kids to private school in DC but the poor black families Obama claims to be fighting for, their kids have to go back to public schools.

Then there's parents. Parents, for whatever reason have come to expect the school to play babysitter to their children. The public school is not supposed to babysit, it's supposed to educate.

Then there's all this political correct bullshit going around. Heaven forbid someone say the wrong thing about whatever minority. For this reason, teachers are crippled as soon as they step into the classroom. Use the wrong word, you're done. Mention the wrong theory, you're done. Disagree with Al Gore, you're done. Tell a kid he's a brat, whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, you're done. Mention God or the Bible, you're done. Vocally support a Republican for President, you're in trouble if not Done.

Right now our schools are teaching our kids WHAT to think instead of HOW to think. People don't like BIG, SUDDEN changes. It's a good thing when Obama tries to pass nationalized health care, it's not such a good thing because it's leaving our kids in the lurch. We've been throwing money at the same old school system for fifty years. It isn't getting any better. We need to try something else. People keep coming up with new plans, good and bad, but none are ever put into practice because everyone is afraid of change.

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#16 2009-10-23 09:45:01

Nadez
Wasted
From: Utah
Registered: 2009-06-06
Posts: 201
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Thats what I meant, Something that will cut straight through the bullshit, some revolutionary Idea that will get through to EVERYONE even those high paid district bastards with there Government in them selves things, there has to be a way to fix all the bullshit, To get rid of all this crap once and for all, we cant sit around and talk about it forever, we have to find a way to fix it. or the next generation is going to keep it this way and so on and so on forever and ever..I just want to find a way that works, and then become and Advocate for it.

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#17 2009-10-23 20:16:32

LAoW
Completely Blotto
Registered: 2006-12-01
Posts: 450

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Nadez, don't hurt yourself there. Sorry to bust your bubble, but we're not the only ones thinking it, but I seriously doubt any of us can come up with the best idea to get it working and implement it. I'm not saying don't worry about it, because it is something serious and worrisome, just don't bust a gasket over it...unless you own millions and are in high society. In which case, yes. I'll marry you. 3dwink


I don't have to worry about revenge because Karma is a bigger bitch than I will ever have to be.

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#18 2009-10-23 21:56:42

lordalpha
Wasted
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 139

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

(Long winded post with a summary at the end, just a fair warning)

Nadez, The first thing you need to think about(not understand, Im trying NOT to sound condecending, or like I know everything, so my apologies to you ahead of time) is: If there were a catchall to ANY system, A simple idea that proved anything, and made it better, Where in history did it exist, and what did it change.

I cannot say I have ever heard of any idea taking on the government and cutting a swath through lies and deceit, or changing minds quick enough to be worth it. The only true changes in governmental policy have taken years if not decades to enact.

Secondly, while I agree that the teachers unions may be a problem in places, in the state of NC, where I happen to reside, NO teachers are unionized, period, we also have one of the LOWEST pay ratios for teachers, with most teachers REQUIRING a second job to stay above the poverty line if they have anyone dependent on them. (you have no idea how much I hate myself for that last statement, but "stay above the poverty line is the only way I know how to describe that) We had a recent scandal in the government where a NC State professor was accused of being given her job, due to connections with high up people(mainly the governor). In months of arguments, and slander and such, I never heard the question asked: "Is she a good teacher?" Never asked if she was qualified for the job, just if she got it illegally. While I agree that such illegal tactics create problems, I think someones career should be judged on their performance as well as any other factors.

Another factor here in NC, Most of the schools here were built back in the 70s. Many of them have not had modern upgrades, and in fact, up until about 4 years ago, there had not been a new school built in a decade within the Triangle area.(4-5 county area) There was a GREAT push to build overflow schools and new area schools, but the goal was only really achieved when some rather......rich businessmen came into the area and decided to FUND the school, IF and only if the county board would allow them to place it in their neighborhood. This was just before the housing market realy took a dive here, projected growth of over four thousand homes, and a school for all of it, K-12. My fiancee even asked to be placed into that school, as they were looking for the exact position and experience she has. The housing market fell, only a few hundred of the thousands of houses have been built now, and at a smaller cost then projected. The school was finished first(in a blinding flash of insight for the normally stupid city council here) and was "gifted" to the state before the market crash. The state then took that, bought land around the school, and has been using it as a place to put a few different charter schools.

The only reason this was able to be done was that an investor came in, made the school, did all the prep, and then gifted the school to the state. It had nothing to do with current need, or with current funds, it was done to solve a problem ahead, versus a problem that already exists.

On another point, to address one of Jefferson's points, Kids are not being taught to think, they are taught to pass a test, or to learn some information. It is sad, while in a college classroom, especially the discussion classrooms, to be able within the first week of class to differentiate the home-school students, with the standard high school students. I wont go into the home school vs public school vs private school debate, for me its one that is too long, too tangled, and I'm out of enough booze in the house to drown the stupidity(not from this community of course, from my own experiences). But the little bit I will get into is, while many of the home schooled students are more prepared for their lessons, can extrapolate correctly, and can get the answers to questions both faster, and with less work(in general, I know there are exceptions to this) then most "straight outta high school" students, they do tend to lack alot of the competitive drive, and the social skills needed to function in today's world. That being said, many of the teachers I have witnessed in high school are appalled at the lack of thinking most students do, however it is, in my opinion, endemic to the system we keep. If you teach a kid that 2 plus 2 equal 4, then they get that, they will memorize that fact, and know it in and out, but if you never teach him the underlying system of math, he will not progress to the next level. If you do not teach a child HOW to think, but rather give him facts he needs to understand enough to pass the EOG, or SOL or whatever end testing you need, then you not only have done the child a disservice, but the community as a whole is weakened(right now seems a pretty good time to start into a grand speech calling for revolution and revolt, but I left my general's jacket at the cleaners a few months back, and I really don't want to have to explain the stains on it to get it back)

A final summary would be that I honestly cannot see that any significant improvement will happen in the teaching sector, not until the general population realizes that we are slowly killing our own future. We are making stupid children and stupid adults, that are great mindless drone workers, who, so long as they can afford their TV and internet to get the daily dose of network ted turner and Rupert Murdoch, and their facebook, myspace and celeb gossip, will continue from birth to death to be the mindless workers. I would say some conspiracy is afoot, but quite honestly, anyone who is smart enough to dumb down THIS many people, and to generate this kind of system has both my regards to continue and my own praise for beating me to the punch.
In a humorous and irrelevant tangent, if you locked a physicist, a psychologist, and a Lucha Libre called "el Bano" into a cage, who do you think would win, and would any of them honestly want to walk out and say they had one hell of a fight with "el bano" last night?( I understand that the N in bano has the ~ over it, but I am quite lazy and do not wish to look up the code for it.)

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#19 2009-10-23 22:29:30

Eric Storm
Pub Owner
From: New Port Richey, FL
Registered: 2006-09-12
Posts: 5745
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Okay, we all agree "revolutionary change" is necessary.

Pay attention to the words I just used.   Now you know what will actually have to happen in order for said change to occur.

To continue LordAlpha's discourse:  As students are taught less and less to think independently, they also lose the ability to critically judge the systems around them.  In other words, the dumber the kids are that the schools put out, the less chance that the future society - populated by those dumb kids - is going to have any desire to change things.  They're not going to be able to see the problem for what it is.  They will take whatever answer the unique, independently thinking individuals give them, and run with that.  So they'll blame whoever their leader wants them to.

If this sounds like the path toward dictatorship to you... hey, you said it, not me.............

Eric


Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
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#20 2009-10-24 02:16:42

lordalpha
Wasted
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 139

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Ehh, I personaly have never had a problem with the idea of a dictatorship. The idea is sound, provided that you have a benevolent and civic minded dictator, not someone who is obsessed with power, and wants more, or the inverse, someone so weak, that he or she refuses to defend the country from needed threat. The problem with a dictatorship is not the idea, but the potential for misuse and abuse. If the king or queen were groomed correctly, and given the ability to think critically, and without needless emotion, the system "could" sustain itself. I am of the opinion that is what these systems did at first, and then decayed with time.

If you think way back, to the prehistory extrapolations of current day, many of our forefathers and foremothers were nomadic tribesmen, who had a council of elders. Much like the current intuit of today. They let the leaders with the most experience lead the tribe, not because they were "better" or somehow mandated by the gods, although that may have been a reason to some. It was a simple matter of survival. If they let people who knew the land, and were more seasoned lead, they would lead with a strong hand when needed, and a soft touch if that is what was required. From what has been told to me, these same people had rights. Rape was of the highest defilement, not only of the person, but the tribe as a whole. There was no practical death penalty, but the tribe would abandon any who went against its laws. That same tribe would be understanding of people who needed it, and firm for people who needed it. Let me give an extrapolated example. The tribe has taken down a large animal of some sort. The food belongs to the tribe as a whole. I come and steal that food, a crime to my people. The personal use of tribe resources would be a crime, because the greater good must be followed. I am brought before the camp and the elders. They ask me why I took some food and some hide from the animal, and did not ask.

One one hand, if I had taken it for my own use, because I needed a new hide patch for my house, That may have been dealt with harshly and firmly.

On the other, if I said that I had found an abandoned child, from a nearby tribe, and needed the hide to keep it warm, and the food to feed it, so that we may return it to its tribe, that may have been dealt with on an entirely different plane. One is for personal gain, the other for the good of the tribe.

Now let us take this to the modern day. A man steals from a store, that does well, and does not hurt anyone, but threatens them with an unloaded gun. He takes 300 dollars and flees. He is caught a week later from store footage, and taken before the court.

One hand, he took the 300 dollars to pay for a drug habit. He didnt have the money to buy any ammo, but had the gun from his old army days.

On the other, he has a boy, who needs medical care, but because his wife just died, and he was a disabled vet, he doesnt have the money to pay for insurance for this child, let alone the needed medical care.

if you were  the judge in a current day court, what would make you judge harsher, and would your heart go out to the man in the second version at all?

Getting to the point, the law today allows SOME leeway in certain situations, but none what so ever in others. Take a plastic knife to school to cut the meat your mother gave you for lunch and your thrown out. But come to school drunk and you may be kicked out, or brought to rehab, and dependent on your attitude, and willingness to recover, be allowed back to school.....

This is sending a rather mixed set of signals to children today. As I said before, the idea of a dictatorship can work, and other times it cannot. We have taken the "dictator" out of the classroom, and instead given rigid, unyielding rules, subject to the interpretation of someone who may or may not know the circumstances of the incident .

For the girl who was kicked out for the plastic knife, her principal fought almost to where he lost his job to keep her in school, knowing it was a misunderstanding. However, the district insisted on the upholding of the law. Quite honestly, if I was going to kill or injure someone, I can think of probably 200 or more items I can bring to school, that are legal, that will do so quicker and more painfully then a plastic butter knife. As George Carlin said, "Its just a table knife but you can kill a pilot with a table knife, If ya really wanted to kill the prick!"

Mayhap the start of the revolution is to give the powers of governance back to the teachers and principals that fight for the rights and needs of the children, and take it away from the districts and groups who just want scores to go up?

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#21 2009-10-24 08:11:23

Eric Storm
Pub Owner
From: New Port Richey, FL
Registered: 2006-09-12
Posts: 5745
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Dictatorships don't work because no one person can know everything necessary to run a large group of people.  Even in the tribal example you quoted, you speak of a "council".  Now, those may not be "elected" individuals, but they are a group, which will discuss and come to a consensus decision about tribal matters amongst themselves.

You have to separate "dictatorial" from "authoritarian".   A dictatorial government is, by definition, run by a single individual, who has no need to listen to anyone else.  (Reminds me of a certain sitting President...).  An authoritarian government is simply one in which the leading group is not necessarily answerable to the people it rules.

Eric


Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
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#22 2009-10-24 10:14:22

lordalpha
Wasted
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 139

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Ahh, Yet, the way you describe the dictatorship, "who has no need to listen to anyone else." I would more quote that as "who usually do not listen to anyone else" Yes, most dictators do not listen to others, however, some do, and while one person does not have the requisite knowledge to run an entire nation, the test of a true leader of any type and time is how they delegate responsibility. Even the worst leaders in history knew that they could not run the entire nation, however I will concede that the idea of a decent dictatorship is just that, an IDEA, one that would never work.

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#23 2009-10-24 22:54:38

Jefferson
Completely Blotto
From: East Coast, USA
Registered: 2006-12-03
Posts: 449

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

I have honestly sat around and considered this idea. The discussions Eric and I have had, and discussions with others, have led me to the same conclusions that Eric has come to and that is that we need REVOLUTIONARY change and we are NOT likely to get it without, literally, ripping this country apart by, somehow, through force of arms or manipulation, seize  control of the government and the country, at least temporarily. (This is NOT A call to arms to over throw the government. It is a statement of my beliefs for any Federal watchdogs out there.)

I heard from somewhere, and after some research into history, I have come to agree with the idea that nobody, no one person, should be allowed to be in power for more than 10 years. They become too well connected, too power hungry. It stops being about serving the people and doing what's best and becomes more "How do I keep my power?" "How do I win reelection?" "How do I keep my friends happy?" I'm sure, at one point, Even Nancy Pelosi had her own revolutionary ideas and a desire to change the world. It goes back to "Power corrupts and Absolute power corrupts, absolutely." For this reason, I have to disagree with your idea of a dictator.

I do agree that we need some way to make the radical, revolutionary changes that we all know we need and I agree, that putting a dictator into power is one way of ensuring those changes get made. My question is, once we've put him/her in power, and they have made those changes, how do we get them to give up their power? If absolute power corrupts, our dictator would become corrupt and would stop worrying about what is best for the rest of us and would begin to worry about what is best for him, his family and his friends. For some reason, I can't see anyone deciding "Okay, I've been in charge long enough. Someone else try it for a while." I like the idea of a Temporary dictator. Some idealist who has lots of good idea that MOST people support. Let him get in there, straighten things out, fix things up, get the house in order and all that but the problem comes when his or her time is up.

Other than a dictator, I think our best bet for the radical kinds of change we need is, either a very charismatic leader who can rally the nation behind him/her who will come to the front at just the right time or, some horrible disaster that will force us all to rethink our way of life. This last one will probably cost us a large portion of the world's population.

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#24 2009-10-24 23:40:24

Eric Storm
Pub Owner
From: New Port Richey, FL
Registered: 2006-09-12
Posts: 5745
Website

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

Jeff, your first option is a no-go.  No charismatic leader will ever be able to rally the ENTIRE nation.  The best they can do is about half of it.  The other half will be rallied, too.... Against them. 

One of the biggest problems with our nation is simply that it is so freakin' BIG.  If you look at a smaller country, with a smaller populace, you will often have a more unified political leaning... because they all live, work, etc. in a very similar environment, which can (does not necessitate, only facilitate) lead to more unity.  The United States is so diverse in its geography, climate, and cultures across the states that it is almost impossible to ever conceive of actual unity of thought... because the environments all those people live in breed different kinds of thought.  What is important to a farmer in rural Iowa is nonsensical to a Manhattanite...  And that is really as it should be, since they lead completely different lives... but it makes getting consensus here almost impossible.

So... I don't expect any charismatic leader to be able to take over.  Actually, the very first step isn't so radical:  It is to impose constitutional term limits of two terms on all federally-elected positions.  I would suggest that each state should do likewise:  two terms for each state-elected position.  The reasons have already been stated, but such term limits will allow for greater change, because there will be no entrenched politicians clinging tightly to their views and their jobs.

Actually.... this might not be practical... but:  If you want to REALLY change Washington?  Set term limits at ONE, not two.  (Might want to bump term lengths up slightly - but NOT double.)  It would entirely kill the lobbying crowd.  If the politician has no need to worry about re-election, then he has no need to gather campaign contributions, and thus, no need to listen to lobbyists instead of his ideals.

Just a thought...

Eric


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#25 2009-10-25 01:09:28

Jefferson
Completely Blotto
From: East Coast, USA
Registered: 2006-12-03
Posts: 449

Re: This is amazingly pathetic...

I think Eric gave an idea of how to fix the schools, maybe without even realizing it.

"The United States is so diverse in its geography, climate, and cultures across the states that it is almost impossible to ever conceive of actual unity of thought...."

Allow states, or even communities, to determine what is best for themselves and their children. Something I agree with wholeheartedly. I think we need some basic standards across the nation. Certain things like reading,  writing, arithmetic, science and history must be taught, even if it is skewed in favor of one argument or one side or the other. At least the students will have a basis if/when they move onto college. We encourage more and more parents to become involved in the schools. We give state legislatures, PTA's and local school boards almost complete control of what goes on in their schools. The Feds, as I've called for before, would be responsible only for making sure each state/community has enough money to ensure that all students, from state to state, across the country, have the opportunity to a free and fair education, as is promised in most, if not all, state Constitutions.

This idea would also lead to something else I believe in, and that is competition. If each community: Each town, each city, each county, is, basically, building and designing their own individualized school system. The schools, at first, would be very similar but as time went on, as parents and teachers see what else is possible and become more involved and change their school system to what they want, the differences may become dramatic in some cases.

Parents would have a choice of where their child should go to school, of what kind of experience their child should have, what classes their child should take and how much say those parents have in that process. Think about the variety of publicly-supported schools we might end up with. Some would have school uniforms, some might teach Christianity, while another would teach Judaism and another, no religion at all, some might be magnet schools, some might be schools for "Troubled" Students. As long as parents have the OPTION to send their child to a Christian or a non-religious school, there would be no violating impugning anyone Freedom of Religion. Each school competing not only with other schools in that community but other schools who serve that same division of the population IE: Christians, troubled students whatever. This would also effectively end any ideas of forced busing (an idea that has long since outlived it's usefulness.)

Tell me I'm wrong? 3dsmile

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