The Woodward Academy, Year 8

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The entire thread can be found here
2019-Apr-26 @ 4:48 AM
Eric Storm
Pub Owner
Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

Again, David's DNA is non-replicating  Current cloning is done by taking a donor cell, ripping the nucleus out of it, then taking a surrogate's egg, ripping the nucleus out of THAT, then taking the donor nucleus, jamming it into the egg, shoving it up the surrogate's wahoo, and waiting.

But in order for that to work, the egg cell must replicate itself.  David's DNA is dead, so non-replicating.

Of course, we can delve into the ethicality of snuffing out the possibility of the life that was in the egg to begin with, in favor of our own choice... but that would have to happen in a different forum section.

Eric Storm


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Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
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Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-26 @ 8:44 PM
justsomeguy
Inebriated
Member since 2010-Jul-11
Posts: 10

Hmmm... I know this is your universe and only you know how it functions, however, is David's DNA dead and as such unable to reproduce, or is it undead and static, unable to change? Does his body regenerate itself, from its own DNA information, or is it reconstructed from a magical master schematic stored in the magic's backup files?


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2019-Apr-26 @ 10:12 PM
Eric Storm
Pub Owner
Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

I just answered this question.  David's DNA is non-replicating.  It would be impossible for DNA and the body's normal systems to repair David in the short amounts of time it takes him to heal.  Therefore, that process must be magical.  This is why David would be worried about ending up with a rock stuck permanently to his arm in the first chapter: because if it becomes part of him in a magical sense, then it might regenerate just like his body does.

(Whether that's actually true or not, I'm not going to bother answering, because I'm cruel like that.  smile  )

Eric Storm


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Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-27 @ 11:10 AM
fathertyme
Inebriated
Member since 2009-Feb-18
Posts: 86

If there are curses, demons, and spells that can cause a person to turn into a tree...

Then what is saying there is not something that could alter a persons bio-chemical makeup to cause them to need a different kind of fulfillment?

Since Gwen has pretty much implied that if she was attracted to men, David would be her choice. The logical conclusion would be for her to turn to him to deal with sexual needs if this situation were to occur.

Obviously not fleshed out, and there are moral questions David would have to deal with about if it was taking advantage of a friend, the equivalent of rape (does she have a choice?) etc... but it was the germ of an idea

*shrugs*

personally, I like Gwen, but it is unreasonable to think that EVERYONE wants to sleep with David.


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2019-Apr-27 @ 8:44 PM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

You know, this all seems like a REALLY long way to go for this.

Why hasn't anyone just suggested, "Jess wants to find out what it's like to have sex with a guy, but wants Gwen to participate so she feels safe.  Gwen naturally turns to David."  ?

Or does having Jess involved screw up the whole Gwen-David thing? 
smile

Eric Storm

PS:  Not suggesting that this "makes sense" in the grand scheme of things.  Just pointing out how much simpler the notion COULD be, than all the far-fetched scenarios being offered...


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Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-27 @ 10:53 PM
thehilz
Wasted
Member since 2010-Sep-7
Posts: 231

Guess I assumed that Jess already had done that in her past based on when David found them kissing he asked(jokingly) if they(David and Gwen) were going to share Jess too and Jess replies she wasn’t into guys. you have now made me question my assumption


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2019-Apr-28 @ 5:52 AM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

If she was bi (and didn't know it), pretty much any nasty experience with men or boys would have made her turn off from them. 

Dammit, now I actually kind of want to do that scene... but I'm not really sure it fits the characters.  I know it doesn't fit the story of book 8...

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-28 @ 6:56 AM
darthel0101
Wasted
Member since 2013-Aug-19
Posts: 139

RE a scene with a David/Gwen/Jess threesome : I would say to work the scene up separate from your writing of Year 8, then if you find a spot where it makes sense, use it
The writing of that scene could be a creative break and possibly a reset for difficulties somewhere else.


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2019-Apr-28 @ 7:12 AM
Eric Storm
Pub Owner
Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

I hear what you're saying, and I might do it... but I'm one of those writers that hates doing work that doesn't get used.  Just a personal quirk.  It's still a good suggestion, though.

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-28 @ 7:45 AM
thehilz
Wasted
Member since 2010-Sep-7
Posts: 231

If you don’t end up using it in the story you could always post it separately. I’m sure there would be plenty of others besides myself that would read anything that you post in the Woodward universe.


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2019-Apr-28 @ 11:02 AM
Phoenix Angel
Tipsy
Member since 2016-May-30
Posts: 4

Eric Storm wrote:

Right.  Because there are so many "let's help the demighosts" scrolls out there...

Eric Storm

I have been reading some of these latest post but has it occured to anyone that david being a potions master can create a potion that can make him fertile.


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2019-Apr-28 @ 11:21 AM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

You can't create a potion to do just anything.  Some things just aren't possible.

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-29 @ 8:30 AM
Phoenix Angel
Tipsy
Member since 2016-May-30
Posts: 4

Eric Storm wrote:

You can't create a potion to do just anything.  Some things just aren't possible.

Eric Storm

from what i've read about david's character he seems to be someone who tends to do the impossible. everytime he sees that there's a need for something he goes above and beyond to make it happen although i do understand you don't want to make things  simple for the character I just wanted to give my two cents given the impressive experience that the character has achieved in the potions skill.


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2019-Apr-29 @ 9:32 AM
thehilz
Wasted
Member since 2010-Sep-7
Posts: 231

David was unable to create a potion to help vampires deal with sunlight in book 4. I think he was also unsuccessful in making a better levitation potion in book 6/7? too if I remember right.


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2019-Apr-29 @ 9:57 AM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

Exactly.  Yes, David is a Level 1 Master Potions Maker.  That doesn't mean he can do anything with a potion, it just means he's good at it.

Some things simply aren't possible.  Keep in mind, to make David fertile would require altering his physiology: it would require him to create living sperm.

That would change David's structure, thus his shape.

You cannot change a demighost's shape.

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-29 @ 3:58 PM
Daedalus
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Member since 2018-Nov-27
Posts: 6

Eric Storm wrote:

Exactly.  Yes, David is a Level 1 Master Potions Maker.  That doesn't mean he can do anything with a potion, it just means he's good at it.

Some things simply aren't possible.  Keep in mind, to make David fertile would require altering his physiology: it would require him to create living sperm.

That would change David's structure, thus his shape.

You cannot change a demighost's shape.

Eric Storm

Does the bloodbank potion not give him living blood cells? A potion to give him sperm isn't that much of a stretch.


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2019-Apr-29 @ 6:36 PM
Phoenix Angel
Tipsy
Member since 2016-May-30
Posts: 4

Daedalus wrote:

Eric Storm wrote:

Exactly.  Yes, David is a Level 1 Master Potions Maker.  That doesn't mean he can do anything with a potion, it just means he's good at it.

Some things simply aren't possible.  Keep in mind, to make David fertile would require altering his physiology: it would require him to create living sperm.

That would change David's structure, thus his shape.

You cannot change a demighost's shape.

Eric Storm

Does the bloodbank potion not give him living blood cells? A potion to give him sperm isn't that much of a stretch.

thats actually a very good point  but I also understand  eric storms point to besides the bloodbank potion is only temporary sperm must remain living even after once the potion wares off they die and so does the baby.


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2019-Apr-29 @ 10:40 PM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

Actually, you answered your own question, Daedalus, you just didn't realize it.

Bloodbank GIVES HIM living blood cells.  It does not cause his body to PRODUCE blood cells.  And sure, a potion could theoretically GIVE HIM sperm cells... but they would not be HIS sperm: they would not contain his DNA.  In order to do that, his body would have to CREATE sperm cells.

In order for the child to actually be David's, David would have to provide living DNA to the sperm.  Since he has no living DNA, he cannot provide it.  His body cannot be altered to suddenly create it.  Yes, a potion could conceivably be created that would put sperm into his body magically... but what DNA would they contain?  The sperm couldn't just "sample" David's DNA, because David's DNA is non-replicating, thus making the sperm useless.  Chances are that this is what a typical potion would try to do, and so wouldn't work.  Trying to craft one that could somehow turn undead DNA into living DNA is... well, beyond the realm of possibility.  Why?  Because in order to replicate itself, DNA must change shape.  And, being part of a demighost, it can't do that.

And yes, the cells created by Bloodbank are temporary.  Sperm cells would be likewise temporary... which would have some very weird effect if the sperm had already joined with an egg.

Ultimately, the point is, in order for David to cause pregnancy, he would have to be altered in structure, and this is not possible.  What has to be remembered is that David isn't just infertile: he's undead.  Some limitations may apply.  (No purchase necessary to enter.  Void where prohibited by the laws of physics.)

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-30 @ 12:18 AM
Centaur
Inebriated
Member since 2006-Dec-8
Posts: 27

I have to point out Chapter One, Book One Have David leving his body when he died. when david be came a demighost via spell/curse, it gave him a new body based on his form at the time of death. it not his actual body thus no acutual DNA(unless eric says other wise). so the talk of his DNA is kinda moot. you would have to have davids original body to get his DNA. Those cells in his dead body are dead and not viable to impregnate an egg as the DNA would have degraded affter 7 years(?). only other option is necromancy and i think that would only produce a david zombe, again need david original body, and the cells would still be dead.


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2019-Apr-30 @ 2:57 AM
Eric Storm
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Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

His body still has cells.  DNA is an integral part of cells, therefore, he has DNA.  But it's demighost DNA: unchanging, unaging, non-replicating.  A cell without DNA in it isn't really a cell, so it HAS to be there.  It just doesn't do what it was designed to do anymore.

Minor detail: the rest of your point is fairly valid.

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-Apr-30 @ 8:12 AM
Daedalus
Tipsy
Member since 2018-Nov-27
Posts: 6

Eric Storm wrote:

Actually, you answered your own question, Daedalus, you just didn't realize it.

Bloodbank GIVES HIM living blood cells.  It does not cause his body to PRODUCE blood cells.  And sure, a potion could theoretically GIVE HIM sperm cells... but they would not be HIS sperm: they would not contain his DNA.  In order to do that, his body would have to CREATE sperm cells.

In order for the child to actually be David's, David would have to provide living DNA to the sperm.

I think people who have had children from donated sperm or eggs would disagree on this point.
Is a sample of blood used in the creation of the bloodbank potion and when used on demighosts it gains the genetic makeup of that sample? For that matter does this work similarly or differently when Bloodbank is administered to a normal person? I think regardless of whether the sperm such a potion produced would be genetically "his" it would allow for him to intimately be a part of the child's conception in a way that in vitro fertilization /surrogacy does not. This is less about David being able to produce a genetic legacy and more about him being able to give a woman a child if she wanted one, perhaps a woman who would use the lack of a possible child as a pretext to break up. *cough* Lise *cough* (and now I just made myself sad.)

Since he has no living DNA, he cannot provide it.  His body cannot be altered to suddenly create it.  Yes, a potion could conceivably be created that would put sperm into his body magically... but what DNA would they contain?  The sperm couldn't just "sample" David's DNA, because David's DNA is non-replicating, thus making the sperm useless.  Chances are that this is what a typical potion would try to do, and so wouldn't work.  Trying to craft one that could somehow turn undead DNA into living DNA is... well, beyond the realm of possibility.  Why?  Because in order to replicate itself, DNA must change shape.  And, being part of a demighost, it can't do that.

DNA isn't "alive" to begin with. Quick and dirty example: DNA is present in viruses, but viruses are not alive by the medical definition.

And yes, the cells created by Bloodbank are temporary.  Sperm cells would be likewise temporary... which would have some very weird effect if the sperm had already joined with an egg.

What are the ramifications of this for Bloodbank's other uses? Is Bloodbank the Chinese takeout of the Vampire world? An hour later and you're suddenly hungry again...
What about with the Lamias? Is a pregnancy in which the Bloodbank potion is used during conception suddenly at risk due to the mother being malnourished from all the blood she drank vanishing?
With people that the potion is counteracting exsanguination? Sure it will stop them from bleeding out while it's active but the body can't produce blood fast enough to replace any of the "magicked" blood in their veins that disappears when the potion wears off.


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2019-Apr-30 @ 12:18 PM
Barbarian3165
Completely Blotto
Member since 2015-Feb-11
Posts: 264

Dude, it's a fantasy story... suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story.  🤔😎


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2019-Apr-30 @ 12:40 PM
Eric Storm
Pub Owner
Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

You do realize that you're arguing world points that the world creator has already explicitly stipulated to you, right?

David's DNA is NON-REPLICATING.  He could give every gram of it he has to someone else, they would NOT be able to use it to reproduce a child.  Reason:  To replicate, DNA must change shape.  Nothing in David can change shape.  This would be the difference between "live" DNA, and "dead" (or actually "undead") DNA.  (I see you like to play semantic games.  Fine.  Replace "live" with "functional" and "dead/undead" with "nonfunctional")

Bloodbank has absolutely ZERO need to reproduce or sample the person's DNA.  If this was important, blood transfusions would never work.  Blood's purpose is to carry oxygen and nutrients.  As long as the blood produced is O-negative, it's going to be suitable for everyone.  (Okay, yes, except for an insanely small group of people who require even less "offensive" blood than O-negative...)  What DNA it possesses is... not particularly important.  It would probably contain the DNA of whatever person crafted the potion.

Now, with a sperm potion, it would have to work one of two ways:  It would either contain the sperm of some individual (the maker?), and basically "inject" those sperm into the potion-taker's testicles... or it would be designed to sample the user's DNA and "build" sperm on the spot.  Now, given the normal use for such a potion, it's fair to say it would be designed to do the latter: sample the user's DNA.  I mean, if a guy wants to get a girl pregnant, but has a fertility problem, he's going to want the kid to be HIS kid, not some random potion maker's kid.

But this second method will not work with David, for the reason already stipulated.

So the ONLY way for David to impregnate a woman would be for him to create a potion that will inject SOMEONE ELSE'S sperm into his body, and keep it alive (his body won't) while he goes and fucks the woman in question.

I can't see David accepting that as an option.  I can't see David continuing a relationship with a woman who sees that as an acceptable option.  If she so badly wants a child, they can adopt one.  This sort of jerry-rigging of fertility isn't the kind of thing David would be okay with.  It says rather clearly that the woman is not accepting of who David actually is.

And after I thought about it (after having posted), I knew someone would say something about the whole disappearing thing.  Logically, once the sperm joined with the egg, and that egg divided just once, the original DNA is no longer crucial: the second cell is completely "normal".  Similarly with Bloodbank, once the blood has done whatever it needs to do in a lamia's body, its disappearance is no longer important.  (After all, they would expel the blood through normal digestion processes, anyway, so they clearly don't need it permanently... I never said the blood was needed for nourishment.)  Vampires would be a bit different... they would have to keep feeding every few hours until they got to a point where they had enough "real" blood in their system.  It would still prevent them from turning their victim, which was the point.  Keep in mind that, for vampires, Bloodbank was not a normal feeding practice.  It's to be used to prevent turning a victim when a large blood source is needed quickly.

As to exsanguinated people:  You're exactly right, which is why, before the potion wears off they need to be in the hands of a healer.  Bloodbank is a sustaining potion, not a curative one.  Before you ask, the lamias' "victims" would not fall into this category: they would essentially be giving up the Bloodbank blood in the first place, and keeping their own blood.  So when Bloodbank wore off, they'd still have their own blood left.  (This is why they have to take it before the sex, and not be given it immediately after.)  Anyone with a "typical" wound would be the same way: the Bloodbank would stop them losing their blood, and it would become the blood that spews forth out of their body.  For it to work any other way, as you point out, eliminates its usefulness.  But if their wound is so extreme that exsanguination is a concern, then when Bloodbank wears off, they're going to bleed out too fast for help, so they will have to already be in a healer's care at that point... or you need to give them more Bloodbank potion.  Though that will eventually fail:  Sustaining potions will not work permanently any more than sustaining charms will.  They are slightly less effective each time they're used in sequence.

So, let's consider this settled, okay?  David is NOT going to father any children.  He might, at some point in his future, "have kids", but they're not going to come from his loins.  He would not consider acting as someone's "animated turkey baster" to be an acceptable act, so aiding in "alternative insemination" is not something he's going to do, either.

Eric Storm


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Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2019-May-1 @ 12:38 PM
KaosKing
Inebriated
Member since 2014-Jul-5
Posts: 29

Eric Storm wrote:

He would not consider acting as someone's "animated turkey baster" to be an acceptable act, so aiding in "alternative insemination" is not something he's going to do, either.

Eric Storm

Thanksgiving is now ruined. Thanks Eric!

tongue


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2019-May-1 @ 9:12 PM
Eric Storm
Pub Owner
Member since 2006-Sep-13
Posts: 4264

Hey, I didn't invent the concept, I just reminded you of it.

:-P

Eric Storm


-----
Please Remember:  The right to Freedom of Speech does not carry the proviso, "As long as it doesn't upset anyone."  The US Constitution does not grant you the right to not be offended.  If you don't like what someone's saying... IGNORE THEM.
----
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.